Blackburn and Darwen health chief calls for 20mph zones (From Lancashire Telegraph)

Roads are that busy it is hard to find a stretch of road where you can make 20mph.

What a plonker, who the hell does he think he is? This barmy suggestion would cripple business at a time when they are already struggling. Instead of forcing people to slow down what about educating people about the dangers of excessive speed? I travel regularly with my job and don't need an extra 20 mins on my journey to get out of Blackburn just because some overpaid council beaurocrat thinks it would be a jolly idea.

It always comes down to the driver doesnt it? What ever happened to the Green Cross Code. Why have we given up educating children about road safety? Because its easier to target/fine drivers than to blame children in our "think of the cheeeldren" society.

"Dominic Harrison, hopes to gain 'a public and political consensus'" - That just means he wants to force us to comply with his whims.

"Mr Harrison said he estimated that a 20mph limit could lead to approximately 2,000 fewer accidents over three years and 50 fewer deaths over a 10-year period. " - He has no actual fact or studies, he is just guessing. As mentioned later in the article, a similar scheme in Portsmouth has yeilded no results whatsoever.

"But Mr Harrison said he believed in 'compliance over enforcement' " - Rubbish. No one wants to comply with the whims of a health boss, simply because its what he wants. Speed is very rarely the overall factor in accidents and child education is more likely to save lives than more regulation.

"Nigel Humphries, of the Association of British Drivers, criticised the suggestion and said it was more important that people watched the road ahead of them and changed their speed accordingly than adhere to one particular speed. " Correct, a driver left alone to think about making his own decisions based on road conditions will be a lot safer than one bound by silly rules and regulations, constantly keeping their eye on the speedo rather than the road.

Reducing all the roads to 20mph will do very little to cut accidents and will cause a great deal of hassle, not just for drivers but for overstreched police with even more to think about. It may be a nice little earner with the extra fines for "speeding" drivers doing over 20 though. Kerching!

"Dominic Harrison, director of public health at the newly formed NHS Blackburn with Darwen Teaching Care Trust Plus" I have no idea what that means. Im sure it doesnt mean that he should be involving himself in issues like this, its none of his business. We have too many "professionals" and fake charities telling us how to live our lives these days. It is about time they shut up and kept their noses out. Enough with the regulation already!

there is no reason for a lower limit as you cant get out of second gear in this town anyway.there are too many traffic lights on barbara castle way that already dictates your speed.the only benefit to anyone of this stupid suggestion is the police coffers.they must be rubbing their hands right now just reading this article.it already takes me twenty minutes each morning to get from one side of the town to the other,if you slow it down even more i will grind to an halt.the minute i get on the m65 at whitebirk and arrive at colne it takes 15 minutes.how can this be?it takes me longer to get to the motorway than it does to colne.this is just another reason people will stop using the town centre and another nail in the coffins of the traders who work there.
and lets not even start with the enviromental implications this would have with our engines being on even longer.

Parents should take more care of their children and educate them in the facts of life i.e. do not run out into the path of a car - at whatever speed it is travelling the outcome is not good. Drivers should also be educated that contact with pedestrians is not good, and they should drive appropriately for their surroundings.
For some obscure official to suggest that a 20mph speed limit overall will make much difference is laughable. As reoported above - the Portsmouth trial has been far from conclusive.
Or could this all be a traffic planners wheeze to blame the gridlocked traffic of Blackburns 'ring' road on a 'new' 20 mph limit??. Over to you Capita..

Hands up anyone who has been prosecuted for exceeding a current 20mph limit.

(resounding silence)


I rest my case, mi'lud!

Certain housing areas have 20MPH limits due to the residents are unable to master what to do on roads. What a daft idea. fair enough around schools etc during the day.

pip-pip wrote:
Hands up anyone who has been prosecuted for exceeding a current 20mph limit.

(resounding silence)


I rest my case, mi'lud!

so what are you saying pip?we should ignore the limit when it is introduced?

It is self important people like this who the English Democrats would relieve of their power, These people do not believe in listening to other people who may not agree with their perception of reality.
you can get rid of them.
Chris Reid
English Democrats
Hyndburn/Haslingden

Should this chap not be putting his own house in order first.
Any way, we already have traffic calming measures - pot holes.

Potholes! LOL!

I'm sure the point of the 30mph was to reduce the risk of serious injury to children - so now it's got to come down to 20mph (?) - and then soon that won't be enough, and then what will happen?

I agree with those that have said that children need educating more about the roads - I have had two close calls this week alone, with children running out in front of my car! And it was nothing to do with the speed limit (I was driving at approx 25mph) - it was kids not having the sense to look before crossing!!!!

So, rather than reducing many roads down to 20mph, how about going into schools and educating more about the green cross code? (And not forgetting encouraging parents to ensure their children are safe when they are out and about!)

Please think about this.

Good drivers do not need a posted speed limit to make them safer drivers.

Bad drivers don't use posted speed limits.

So where's the problem?

It's an education problem, followed by firm law and order enforcement - but education comes first and foremost.

I suggest that Dominic Harrison sticks to what he's supposed to be good at.

He should keep out of driver thinking matters.

A good driver observes the situation around him/her. If that same, careful driver then has to constantly look at the speedo, that is time spent NOT observing. It's a good idea, OK, but there's only very few places on side streets where you can go far at 25mph. It seems to work round the Uni in Preston. Let's give it a go BUT, and this is crucial, let's not increase prosecutions, for God's sake.

Never going to happen and just someone trying to get his name out and about. Surprised any 20MPH were ever introduced, how many prosecutions nationwide have there been for excessive speeding in these areas?
I could suggest 5 mph limits would make the whole roads safer, I could also suggest that kids don't play on roads or walk out without looking AND walking slowly across while staring driver out is NOT hard or clever.
Bring back the green cross code because something is seriously missing in the kids road safety (common sense) education.
Education for some parents is also needed, why are three year olds outside on main roads and pavements without a parent nearby?

In residential areas and around schools maybe something should be done.
I do worry though that we are breeding the idea that the roads are safe for children to simply walk into, it already feels as if that is the case to some degree.

I'd like to know where this guy has got his figures from.
The Governments own statistics show that there is a DROP in accidents in this country year upon year.
The fact that during the day you can't get over 10mph most of the time seems to have been ignored by him.
At the same time this borough has plenty of speed cameras dotted about to enforce the speed limits.
The ONLY people who exceed these limits are those who IGNORE them in the first place, ie the illegal drivers with no licence, no insurance, no nothing.
This proposal will not affect them one bit so accidents caused by this type of person will continue
Why hit the majority with a speed limit that the MINORITY ignore?

Why not just bring back the horse and cart!!!

Mr Harrison are you saying it’s alright to hit these children at 20mph as this will not kill them but at 30mph it might? This helps no one, the child will still have been hit, education for the child is what is required, your stereo types are stating lets teach children sex education at an early age, let’s get back to basics and teach them the Green cross code.

How many kids play out on barbara castle way? It's the side roads that should be 20mp, our road is like brans hatch, we have one of those signs that tells you what speed you are doing, but a lot of drivers increase their speed when it shows the speed they are doing, these signs are pointless if the speed isn't recorded on camera.

jack russell wrote:
How many kids play out on barbara castle way? It's the side roads that should be 20mp, our road is like brans hatch, we have one of those signs that tells you what speed you are doing, but a lot of drivers increase their speed when it shows the speed they are doing, these signs are pointless if the speed isn't recorded on camera.

Mr Harrison said the exception would be main or arterial routes into the town such as Barbara Castle Way, Bolton Road and Whalley New Road.

The key word is EXCEPTION.. so these remain as they are..

A few little tips for people crossing the road...
1, Find a safe place to cross.
2, Look all around for traffic, and listen too.
3, If traffic is coming, let it pass.
4, When no traffic is coming, walk across the road, looking and listening for traffic as you do so.
.
I myself have been following these simple steps for 40 + years, and have never been knocked down yet.

Many of these comments focus on children crossing roads and may be missing the point that Mr Harrison is making. By reducing speed the number of accidents is reduced. If you are involved in an accident at 30mph your passenger is three times more likely to be injured than at 20mph.
I am guessing that most of the comments have been written by folks who were children quite a long time ago. The number of vehicles on the roads presently is so high that speed reduction must be introduced. Excessive speed is one of the main causes of road accidents in Great Britain. In addition to improved road safety, speed reduction can result in reduced vehicle emissions and an improved quality of life for residents through reduced vehicle noise, reduced fear of traffic and a better environment in which to walk or cycle.
This subject is very close to my heat.
Here in Huncoat a little boys has just, tragically, lost his life after being hit by a car and I lost a member of my family after she was hit by a car. These accidents are preventable by a number of means and 20mph limit is one. Hit at 30mph there is a 50% chance of death; hit at 20mph there is a 5% chance of death.

Bring Back Tufty!

Being a witness to an accident last week in a 20mph speed limit where the driver was not aware of it and cubsequently said "I was going just under 30". This speed limit was pointed out to him and the attending police officer to which we were told that the limit is non enforcable by them and therefore the 30mph limit is actually the true limit. This limit is only there to 'encourage' people to slow down, it is not the real limit! I then asked the officer why our taxes paid for signs etc to display this limit when it is not true and he replied it annoyed him too and was a waste of money - where money could be better spent on speed bumps etc.
So ppl, it's not even a speed limit at all! And that answers the above question of how many ppl have been done for speeding in a 20mph limit and why no one has!

Black Car Guy. wrote:
Certain housing areas have 20MPH limits due to the residents are unable to master what to do on roads. What a daft idea. fair enough around schools etc during the day.

Why have a lower speed limit around schools during the day, at this time the kids are in the class room at the start and the end of the school day there is no chance of doing 20 mph because of all the mothers picking their kids up and clogging the roads up, what about all the extra pollution in these areas from cars running about in second gear, the next outcry will be about asthma increasing in the areas of the 20mph limits.

" It's 30 for a reason". That's what the propaganda says. NO !!! It's 30 because Hore Belisha randomly chose that particular speed in 1930 with absolutely no research figures at all and made it law. To suggest that the reason is that it saves lives is not based on any evidence at all. The reason is History. If you think otherwise you are saying that vehicles and road conditions now are still as they were in 1930.

I live in a 20mph HomeZone where cars frequently drive through at about 35-40 mph. Pedestrians are supposed to have priority over cars in a HomeZone but the motorists who cut through here don't give a monkey's about other road users. It's only a matter of time before someone gets knocked down here. It's the motorists who need educating especially the taxi drivers who seem to believe that 40mph is the minimum speed they need to drive at regardless of the danger to other road users.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to comment on this story (yes... even Andrew Weiss who is convinced I am a Plonker!).
There are some very good points made in your postings and I would like to make a few responses !

1. The purpose of raising the issues involved in a '20 mph towns' approach for BwD was to start a discussion and not to impose any immediate solutions.
2.As Director of Public Health my job is to draw attention to issues that I feel are important to the health and wellbeing of the community and as speed limits of 20 mph have been shown to be effective in reducing the numbers of Killed and Seriously Injured (KSIs), I felt it was important to raise this issue.
3. The numbers of KSIs and road transport collisions that might be prevented by a universal 20mph in BwD is difficult to calculate becasue it depends on how much the driving public (which includes me) are prepared to comply with the limits set - as a number of you have pointed out. Evidence shows the number of collissions prevented will be somewhere between 15% and 71% with various factors affecting where on that scale we might achieve given certain 'implementation assumptions'
4. I am reccomending that we should try and advertising/social marketing approach with public (driver) voluntary complience as our strategy.....i.e. trying to convince as many people as possible as a first option..... over time this could save upto the number quoted in the article.
5. BUT ...the numbers killed and seriously injured would depend on us and our willingness to co-operate with the measure. With Drinking and Driving evidence shows that it has now achieved widespread public complience because everyone (largely) believes in it --and not any longer solely as a result of police action. This is the best form of implementation.
6.We would not tollerate an annual number of 1,300 BwD citizens being admitted to hospital through Air Transport accidents, or Sea Transport accidents - why should we not aim to have a Zero Tollerance approach to road transport too ?
7. Children and cyclists have, to a significant, extent excluded themselves from many of our roads over the past 10 years because they have felt unsafe. One consequence is that whilst 71 % of adults used to play out in the street when young, now only just over 20% of children do. Rising obesity in children is one consequence.

Would going 20mph in urban residential zones in BwD really be too much of a price to pay to save lives and bring back a better quality of life for BwD communities?



Dominic Harrison
Director of Public Health
BwD

Michael@ClitheroeSin
ce58 wrote:
Bring Back Tufty!

Cheers, I was trying to think of the name and my wife couldn't help me. Was just going to google to see if I could find it.
Tufty must have taught me well as I have never been knocked over or run out between a parked car.
Where do people gets stats like "Hit at 30mph there is a 50% chance of death; hit at 20mph there is a 5% chance of death" they can't be backed up what so ever.
Cars have far better brakes now than years ago and figures show that deaths are less - education has decreased and needs to increase.

Why doesn't Mr. Harrison Director of public health, start making improvements in hospital care, or locking up drug dealers? That would save far more lives. Could it be that this would involve proper work from him, rather than just sitting on his a**e and getting a bye law passed.? No, let's target the motorist again to justify his job, another EASY option.

The latest mad cap scheme from this council that appears to want to drive car users out of the town. What next Cllr Lee?

Dominic Harrison wrote:
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to comment on this story (yes... even Andrew Weiss who is convinced I am a Plonker!).
There are some very good points made in your postings and I would like to make a few responses !

1. The purpose of raising the issues involved in a '20 mph towns' approach for BwD was to start a discussion and not to impose any immediate solutions.
2.As Director of Public Health my job is to draw attention to issues that I feel are important to the health and wellbeing of the community and as speed limits of 20 mph have been shown to be effective in reducing the numbers of Killed and Seriously Injured (KSIs), I felt it was important to raise this issue.
3. The numbers of KSIs and road transport collisions that might be prevented by a universal 20mph in BwD is difficult to calculate becasue it depends on how much the driving public (which includes me) are prepared to comply with the limits set - as a number of you have pointed out. Evidence shows the number of collissions prevented will be somewhere between 15% and 71% with various factors affecting where on that scale we might achieve given certain 'implementation assumptions'
4. I am reccomending that we should try and advertising/social marketing approach with public (driver) voluntary complience as our strategy.....i.e. trying to convince as many people as possible as a first option..... over time this could save upto the number quoted in the article.
5. BUT ...the numbers killed and seriously injured would depend on us and our willingness to co-operate with the measure. With Drinking and Driving evidence shows that it has now achieved widespread public complience because everyone (largely) believes in it --and not any longer solely as a result of police action. This is the best form of implementation.
6.We would not tollerate an annual number of 1,300 BwD citizens being admitted to hospital through Air Transport accidents, or Sea Transport accidents - why should we not aim to have a Zero Tollerance approach to road transport too ?
7. Children and cyclists have, to a significant, extent excluded themselves from many of our roads over the past 10 years because they have felt unsafe. One consequence is that whilst 71 % of adults used to play out in the street when young, now only just over 20% of children do. Rising obesity in children is one consequence.

Would going 20mph in urban residential zones in BwD really be too much of a price to pay to save lives and bring back a better quality of life for BwD communities?



Dominic Harrison
Director of Public Health
BwD

Who on earth do you think you are? Who elected you and why is our Council getting some unelected bureaucrat to do their dirty work? Councillor Mike Lee is planning a bus lane to clog up our roads, potholes to wreck our vehicles and now some stooge to hit the final nail in the coffin of car users in Blackburn and ban us from driving above 50 mph. He talks about marketing and awareness campaigns - double speak for fancy leaflets and campaigns to win him some plaudits in government and give him a fancy job elsewhere. Meanwhile we are saddled with his legacy. If councillor Cottam and lee and the chief executive want this barmy plan they should be up front about it instead of weakly hiding behind some faceless civil servant who probably doesn't live anywhere near Blackburn. In fact, Mr Harrison perhaps you could enlighten us to how long you have been working in Blackburn and how close you live to our town? As for our council leader all I can say is I hope you have been honest and included this pledge in your council literature? Bet you haven't...

Typying error above 30mph not 50mph

Driver Awareness wrote:
Please think about this. Good drivers do not need a posted speed limit to make them safer drivers. Bad drivers don't use posted speed limits. So where's the problem? It's an education problem, followed by firm law and order enforcement - but education comes first and foremost. I suggest that Dominic Harrison sticks to what he's supposed to be good at. He should keep out of driver thinking matters.

Agreed! this man should f**k off!

As already stated there are traffic calming measures; POTHOLES.

But then again this is BwD council - they are mentally retarded at the best of times, so expect this to be enforced!!!!!!!!

As Buzzy Bee says --'kill your speed'
Safer drivers 'WHAT WE NEED '
A brilliant educational tool that gets the kids to educate parents

demo1 wrote:
As Buzzy Bee says --'kill your speed'
Safer drivers 'WHAT WE NEED '
A brilliant educational tool that gets the kids to educate parents

Exactly, education is what is needed not some madcap scheme. Mr Burgess get your house in order and stop dictating to us what we should and shouldn't do, if you want some hairbrained scheme at least have the bottle to propose it rather than get one of your lackeys to do your dirty work. As for the council leader, his silence speaks volumes. I for one won't be voting Conservative if this is what they want to push through the back door.

I suspect this is the thin end of the wedge now that failed council leader Bill Taylor is in charge of health in our town. Not content with ruining the town centre when he was at the helm he's now using his unelected bureacrats to begin dictating how we live our lives again. Reducing the speed limit removes the need for parents and schools to teach kids the green cross code - yet again nanny state gone mad. This is why we hve a generation unable to make decisions for themself or quick to contact a no win no fee lawyer for compo as soon as something happens to their kids - ignoring the fact that as a parent it is their responsibility to ensure they hve good awareness of their surroundings. Now Bill Taylor has started with this what next - banning shops from selling booze or
cigarettes? Banning takeaways? Banning the use if cars
unless the journey is over 10 miles? Flouride in our water? Contraceptives in our water to
cut down on teenage pregnancy? What next Sir Bill? What next? I don't know who this new overpaid NHS suit is but for someone who is obviously intelligent he is very foolish agreeing to go public with Sir Bill's unfinished business. The voters rejected Sir Bill because they felt at the time he was doing a lousy job as leader but sadly now as an unelected powerhouse he has found another way to
impose his views and values on us all.

Mr harris you are a fool,why is it that people like you assume that speed is the only cause of death on our roads?,what about loud music,mobile phones,sat nav systems etc? im a biker and you know what i consider myself to be a safe motorist regardless of what speed im travelling at.The reason for this is i concentrate on the act of being a motorist and not on anything else.

Posters will be pleased to know that although in the Netherlands 70% of urban roads have a 17.5 mph speed limit, they have not had recourse to asking a man with a red flag to walk in front of all motor vehicles.

Despite most German residential streets being 18 .5 mph or even less, they have managed to get out of the recession faster than the UK.

In Portsmouth with a 20 mph speed limit they had a 15% reduction in casualties in the first 12 months and a 7mph reduction in speed on faster roads. All of this with no grid lock or adverse consequences.

In town halls throughout the country councillors are coming under pressure from voters and residents to set 20 mph as the right speed limit for residential roads.

It makes hardly any difference to actual journey times, uses less fuel, causes less noise and makes our streets a more enjoyable place for everyone.

Best regards

Rod King
20's Plenty for Us - The national organisation supporting local communities who want lower speeds where people live.

Dominic Harrison wrote:
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to comment on this story (yes... even Andrew Weiss who is convinced I am a Plonker!).
There are some very good points made in your postings and I would like to make a few responses !

1. The purpose of raising the issues involved in a '20 mph towns' approach for BwD was to start a discussion and not to impose any immediate solutions.
2.As Director of Public Health my job is to draw attention to issues that I feel are important to the health and wellbeing of the community and as speed limits of 20 mph have been shown to be effective in reducing the numbers of Killed and Seriously Injured (KSIs), I felt it was important to raise this issue.
3. The numbers of KSIs and road transport collisions that might be prevented by a universal 20mph in BwD is difficult to calculate becasue it depends on how much the driving public (which includes me) are prepared to comply with the limits set - as a number of you have pointed out. Evidence shows the number of collissions prevented will be somewhere between 15% and 71% with various factors affecting where on that scale we might achieve given certain 'implementation assumptions'
4. I am reccomending that we should try and advertising/social marketing approach with public (driver) voluntary complience as our strategy.....i.e. trying to convince as many people as possible as a first option..... over time this could save upto the number quoted in the article.
5. BUT ...the numbers killed and seriously injured would depend on us and our willingness to co-operate with the measure. With Drinking and Driving evidence shows that it has now achieved widespread public complience because everyone (largely) believes in it --and not any longer solely as a result of police action. This is the best form of implementation.
6.We would not tollerate an annual number of 1,300 BwD citizens being admitted to hospital through Air Transport accidents, or Sea Transport accidents - why should we not aim to have a Zero Tollerance approach to road transport too ?
7. Children and cyclists have, to a significant, extent excluded themselves from many of our roads over the past 10 years because they have felt unsafe. One consequence is that whilst 71 % of adults used to play out in the street when young, now only just over 20% of children do. Rising obesity in children is one consequence.

Would going 20mph in urban residential zones in BwD really be too much of a price to pay to save lives and bring back a better quality of life for BwD communities?



Dominic Harrison
Director of Public Health
BwD

what a load of gibberish clap trap.are we saying lets slow everybody down and this will help cure obesity?iv never heard as much crap in my life.
sounds to me your just trying to justify your role in life by making it look like your earning your prob very high salary.
and i would be very intrested to know if you live in our very obese town?

What a pity it is that when somebody who is clearly trying to improve the health of people in Blackburn with Darwen and save children's lives comes out and asks for a debate on a topic and for people's views on a proposal he believes would make a difference (and clearly states he is implicity not looking to enforce a rule but wants to see what readers think) so many morons on here respond with insults, personal attacks about his job and his intentions rather than discuss the issue politely and explain with reason why they disagree.

Andrew Weiss, ChrisLancs, AnotherView, ExForces and The Offspring to name but a few, hang your heads in shame. You embarrass us all.