COLUMN: The words of atheists are nothing without action

I was in a Hyndburn group in downtown New York marvelling at the difference God had made.

We were helping with the world’s biggest Sunday school which has a massive effect helping out 70,000 kids and their dysfunctional families.

I was in my wheelchair, my only means of transport following my third hip replacement. It had several punctures, and it was getting late.

“Back to the hostel for nine!” we’d been warned because the Big Apple streets were unsafe towards midnight.

In this seemingly hopeless situation, I prayed for help and, God bless him, a late-night shopkeeper came to the rescue.

Discovering we were with the local church, he immediately took time out from his late-night corner shop to use his own bike repair kit to get me going.

“It’s for free,” he waved away my dollars, “just give me one fifty to buy another kit.”

“Why?” I blurted out.

“Believe me,” he smiled, “this gets nowhere near paying for what your church has done for my family and this community.” This episode flashed into my mind this week on hearing what US atheists are planning to do just round the corner from this Brooklyn shopkeeper.

To mark their national conference called ‘Reason Rally’, atop of building in a mixed community of Muslims, Jews and Christians, they planned a massive billboard declaring in English, Arabic and Hebrew, ‘You know it’s a myth... and you have a choice’.

Surely, a group claiming to be guided by reason should have thought this through. Billboard words are nothing without action.

If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth.

Comments (70)

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1:43pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Atheists, are voluntarily helpful to Children and incurable people every day.
Atheists, are voluntarily helpful to Children and incurable people every day. Ken Shuffles

1:45pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

some don't belive birth and death is reality and don't see any evidence being put forward for it as being the reality of anything whatsoever.


.


Obviously, no two Atheists are the same.
some don't belive birth and death is reality and don't see any evidence being put forward for it as being the reality of anything whatsoever. . Obviously, no two Atheists are the same. Ken Shuffles

1:50pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Some Atheists love life so much and are so thankful, that all forms of belief are utterly redundant.
Some Atheists love life so much and are so thankful, that all forms of belief are utterly redundant. Ken Shuffles

1:55pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Others, can change everything you thought you had understood about reality in one fifth of a second.
Others, can change everything you thought you had understood about reality in one fifth of a second. Ken Shuffles

1:57pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Religion has no example of reality.
Religion has no example of reality. Ken Shuffles

2:00pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Actions, sermons, noble words, facts and figures are futile without reality Kevin.
Actions, sermons, noble words, facts and figures are futile without reality Kevin. Ken Shuffles

2:09pm Wed 14 Mar 12

ToffeeGuy says...

"If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth."

They do. They work for the NHS and Social Services and a 101 more secular organisations and charities.

Don't presume that only people of faith have a monopoly of compassion.
"If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth." They do. They work for the NHS and Social Services and a 101 more secular organisations and charities. Don't presume that only people of faith have a monopoly of compassion. ToffeeGuy

2:09pm Wed 14 Mar 12

JohnnyDale says...

Are you still getting a free column to propagate your drivel Kevin?

When does the flat-earth society get its column?
Are you still getting a free column to propagate your drivel Kevin? When does the flat-earth society get its column? JohnnyDale

2:15pm Wed 14 Mar 12

ToffeeGuy says...

JohnnyDale wrote:
Are you still getting a free column to propagate your drivel Kevin?

When does the flat-earth society get its column?
Yeah.

Surely Rev Kev should have started his column this week by being openly critical of Mr Jack Straw's comments about Christianity in this paper last week, instead of yet another polemic on atheism.
[quote][p][bold]JohnnyDale[/bold] wrote: Are you still getting a free column to propagate your drivel Kevin? When does the flat-earth society get its column?[/p][/quote]Yeah. Surely Rev Kev should have started his column this week by being openly critical of Mr Jack Straw's comments about Christianity in this paper last week, instead of yet another polemic on atheism. ToffeeGuy

2:58pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
Atheists, are voluntarily helpful to Children and incurable people every day.
Glad to hear of it, Ken.
.
They do this because, though they are unable to appreciate it, they are recipients of God's common grace to all humanity.
.
They love because they are made in the image of God of love, not a collection of accidental selfish genes.
.
Now, if they just got together and did it together, they'd have as much impact on society as do millions of churches across the globe.
.
Note: Maybe I shouldn't be passing on these helpful tips to atheists:- :-
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Atheists, are voluntarily helpful to Children and incurable people every day.[/p][/quote]Glad to hear of it, Ken. . They do this because, though they are unable to appreciate it, they are recipients of God's common grace to all humanity. . They love because they are made in the image of God of love, not a collection of accidental selfish genes. . Now, if they just got together and did it together, they'd have as much impact on society as do millions of churches across the globe. . Note: Maybe I shouldn't be passing on these helpful tips to atheists:- :- Revkev

3:10pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
Some Atheists love life so much and are so thankful, that all forms of belief are utterly redundant.
Not at all, Ken.
Atheists have their beliefs. Let's leave them with something.
.
Just finished my recorded version of Sir Paul Nurses' Dimbleby lecture on BBC.
.
I loved every minute. Brilliant, insightful, extremely knowledgeable, yet sad.
.
It was a sermon to the God of Science.
It viewed all man's achievements and advances in terms of science and saw all future solutions to the economy, industry and commerce of scientific terms.
.
The sadness came in realising that he really believes that science will be humanity's saviour.
It is wonderful, far-reaching, amazing, yet can it change the greed of economists and bakers?
Can it stop wars, or leaders being corrupted by power, or the rich living off the poor?
.
I could almost cry at what this amazing knight has left out.
.
This world needs a saviour that can change human nature and science will never ever get near that.
.
Not with anything like the power that God shows in Jesus Christ as his Holy Spirit enters into human souls.
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Some Atheists love life so much and are so thankful, that all forms of belief are utterly redundant.[/p][/quote]Not at all, Ken. Atheists have their beliefs. Let's leave them with something. . Just finished my recorded version of Sir Paul Nurses' Dimbleby lecture on BBC. . I loved every minute. Brilliant, insightful, extremely knowledgeable, yet sad. . It was a sermon to the God of Science. It viewed all man's achievements and advances in terms of science and saw all future solutions to the economy, industry and commerce of scientific terms. . The sadness came in realising that he really believes that science will be humanity's saviour. It is wonderful, far-reaching, amazing, yet can it change the greed of economists and bakers? Can it stop wars, or leaders being corrupted by power, or the rich living off the poor? . I could almost cry at what this amazing knight has left out. . This world needs a saviour that can change human nature and science will never ever get near that. . Not with anything like the power that God shows in Jesus Christ as his Holy Spirit enters into human souls. Revkev

3:13pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Revkev says...

JohnnyDale wrote:
Are you still getting a free column to propagate your drivel Kevin?

When does the flat-earth society get its column?
Hi JohnnyDale,
If you would like, I'll have a word with the powers-that-be and see if they'll commission you to do one.
Let me know:-:-
[quote][p][bold]JohnnyDale[/bold] wrote: Are you still getting a free column to propagate your drivel Kevin? When does the flat-earth society get its column?[/p][/quote]Hi JohnnyDale, If you would like, I'll have a word with the powers-that-be and see if they'll commission you to do one. Let me know:-:- Revkev

3:17pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Revkev says...

ToffeeGuy wrote:
"If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth."

They do. They work for the NHS and Social Services and a 101 more secular organisations and charities.

Don't presume that only people of faith have a monopoly of compassion.
Hi ToffeeGuy,
Now that would be interesting - to find out the faith-make-up of the NHS and Social Services.
.
But you make a good point about atheists' contributing to the human bank of love and compassion. Thank you.
.
You might have a look at an earlier reply to Ken, about atheists having God's Common Grace. It's about four contributions before this one.
[quote][p][bold]ToffeeGuy[/bold] wrote: "If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth." They do. They work for the NHS and Social Services and a 101 more secular organisations and charities. Don't presume that only people of faith have a monopoly of compassion.[/p][/quote]Hi ToffeeGuy, Now that would be interesting - to find out the faith-make-up of the NHS and Social Services. . But you make a good point about atheists' contributing to the human bank of love and compassion. Thank you. . You might have a look at an earlier reply to Ken, about atheists having God's Common Grace. It's about four contributions before this one. Revkev

3:46pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Norman the Wangler says...

i really believe that you believe yourself 'reverand'. the only people who do anything good are religious folk. yeah ok! if ya say so. soup kitchens and hand holding for old ladies really makes up for pretty much every single war ever fought, the systematic persecution of minorities and women since your silly books were written, the none treatment of HIV in Africa letting millions of innocent children die in poverty and disease in a dust filled desert, the wide spread sexual abuse of children by the 'good men of the cloth'... i could go on but you will continue to spout your religious vomit. and why wouldnt you? its given you a more than comfortable income and a pulpit and a newspaper column for you to help you feel important with hasnt it! but isnt vanity one of your deadly sins? hypocritical to the last. lets hope for your sake there is nobody waiting to judge you eh?
i really believe that you believe yourself 'reverand'. the only people who do anything good are religious folk. yeah ok! if ya say so. soup kitchens and hand holding for old ladies really makes up for pretty much every single war ever fought, the systematic persecution of minorities and women since your silly books were written, the none treatment of HIV in Africa letting millions of innocent children die in poverty and disease in a dust filled desert, the wide spread sexual abuse of children by the 'good men of the cloth'... i could go on but you will continue to spout your religious vomit. and why wouldnt you? its given you a more than comfortable income and a pulpit and a newspaper column for you to help you feel important with hasnt it! but isnt vanity one of your deadly sins? hypocritical to the last. lets hope for your sake there is nobody waiting to judge you eh? Norman the Wangler

4:11pm Wed 14 Mar 12

cocteaut says...

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.

Give the man a net and he will eat fish for a year.

Give the man prayer, and he will die praying for a fish.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Give the man a net and he will eat fish for a year. Give the man prayer, and he will die praying for a fish. cocteaut

4:14pm Wed 14 Mar 12

cocteaut says...

Athiests do good out of a sense of altruism.

The religious do good for personal reward in heaven.
Athiests do good out of a sense of altruism. The religious do good for personal reward in heaven. cocteaut

4:31pm Wed 14 Mar 12

darwenTower says...

Are there no Christians in New York? Or are they all off on a Jolly preaching elsewhere in the world?
Hopefully some of them are over here because I'd hate to think that the sufferers of Hyndburn had been left at the mercy of the atheists.

I wonder if the scientists creating replacement hips are atheists too.
Are there no Christians in New York? Or are they all off on a Jolly preaching elsewhere in the world? Hopefully some of them are over here because I'd hate to think that the sufferers of Hyndburn had been left at the mercy of the atheists. I wonder if the scientists creating replacement hips are atheists too. darwenTower

4:50pm Wed 14 Mar 12

jogalot says...

Life is the most amazing miracle. We exist! Isn't that a most amazing miracle?
.
Whatever you call whatever it is that makes this life possible is open to debate - God, molecules, evolution, chance - but atheists are just as capable of appreciating it as anyone else. Religion, atheism, science, philosophy etc is not the point. The point is that each one of is capable of enjoying and appreciating everything that each breath brings to us if we will just accept it. We are all capable of loving, caring, giving, passion, compassion, kindness and sharing.
.
And it is all because of this wonderful miracle of life. You may believe Jesus walked on water and turned wine into water - that's your prerogative - but we all know we are alive and we all know, when we are sincere, that we are living an amazing miracle right here, right now, with every breath we are given. Don't overlook the obvious.
Life is the most amazing miracle. We exist! Isn't that a most amazing miracle? . Whatever you call whatever it is that makes this life possible is open to debate - God, molecules, evolution, chance - but atheists are just as capable of appreciating it as anyone else. Religion, atheism, science, philosophy etc is not the point. The point is that each one of is capable of enjoying and appreciating everything that each breath brings to us if we will just accept it. We are all capable of loving, caring, giving, passion, compassion, kindness and sharing. . And it is all because of this wonderful miracle of life. You may believe Jesus walked on water and turned wine into water - that's your prerogative - but we all know we are alive and we all know, when we are sincere, that we are living an amazing miracle right here, right now, with every breath we are given. Don't overlook the obvious. jogalot

4:55pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Blimey jogalot, that's just what I've been trying to say.....
Blimey jogalot, that's just what I've been trying to say..... Ken Shuffles

4:56pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

It's beautiful, not just important.
It's beautiful, not just important. Ken Shuffles

5:07pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

One day, we will find peace and beauty and love and fulfillment and clarity and wisdom and happiness and joy and understanding in each breath that comes to us, one day, we will turn and we will look there and into each beautiful breath that has always been with us and hold open our hand to that that beautiful companion which will never let go of your beautiful friendship.
One day, we will find peace and beauty and love and fulfillment and clarity and wisdom and happiness and joy and understanding in each breath that comes to us, one day, we will turn and we will look there and into each beautiful breath that has always been with us and hold open our hand to that that beautiful companion which will never let go of your beautiful friendship. Ken Shuffles

5:16pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

We are living with the miracle of all miracles.
We are living with the miracle of all miracles. Ken Shuffles

5:21pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

""If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth""

Insulting. Ignorant. Ill informed. Incorrect. Irresponsible.

Do you really think that atheists do not help society?
That because atheists don't form into bands of singers and congregate every sunday that they do not do good in society?
Are you really that ignorant?
Just because atheists don't shout about their good works, that does not mean that they do not carry any out.
(Two minutes on google would show you some publicised examples however).
Many of us carry out charitable and volunteer work. We don't feel the need to make a noise about what we do. We don't feel the need for recognition or glory.
We don't feel we have to donate to charity to appease god.

We do so because we are caring people who are in a position to help others.

Unlike donations to religious organisations, atheist charitable donations would not go to the following causes:

-Pointless legal actions for B&B owners engaging in homophobia
-Legal defence costs of priest charged with criminal activity
-Priests pensions (after the commissioners unwisely lost so much money
-Heating draughty old buildings
-Buying cars for priests
-Building churches in places where the people don't even have houses
-Brainwashing the uneducated, illiterate, desparate, homeless into following their dogma.
-Only giving food in return for sitting through bible class.

(Charity should not have strings attached)

Atheists are generous. They just don't dilute the power of their giving by filtering it through religious organisations - which are already stuffed full of cash anyway.

The church of england has BILLIONS of liquid assets.

*There are atheist charities. Try doing some research on the subject.

*Have not even raised the subject of the misery, persecution and poverty for which religion holds much responsibility.
""If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth"" Insulting. Ignorant. Ill informed. Incorrect. Irresponsible. Do you really think that atheists do not help society? That because atheists don't form into bands of singers and congregate every sunday that they do not do good in society? Are you really that ignorant? Just because atheists don't shout about their good works, that does not mean that they do not carry any out. (Two minutes on google would show you some publicised examples however). Many of us carry out charitable and volunteer work. We don't feel the need to make a noise about what we do. We don't feel the need for recognition or glory. We don't feel we have to donate to charity to appease god. We do so because we are caring people who are in a position to help others. Unlike donations to religious organisations, atheist charitable donations would not go to the following causes: -Pointless legal actions for B&B owners engaging in homophobia -Legal defence costs of priest charged with criminal activity -Priests pensions (after the commissioners unwisely lost so much money -Heating draughty old buildings -Buying cars for priests -Building churches in places where the people don't even have houses -Brainwashing the uneducated, illiterate, desparate, homeless into following their dogma. -Only giving food in return for sitting through bible class. (Charity should not have strings attached) Atheists are generous. They just don't dilute the power of their giving by filtering it through religious organisations - which are already stuffed full of cash anyway. The church of england has BILLIONS of liquid assets. *There are atheist charities. Try doing some research on the subject. *Have not even raised the subject of the misery, persecution and poverty for which religion holds much responsibility. Joseph Yossarian

5:28pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

Revkev wrote:
Ken Shuffles wrote: Atheists, are voluntarily helpful to Children and incurable people every day.
Glad to hear of it, Ken. . They do this because, though they are unable to appreciate it, they are recipients of God's common grace to all humanity. . They love because they are made in the image of God of love, not a collection of accidental selfish genes. . Now, if they just got together and did it together, they'd have as much impact on society as do millions of churches across the globe. . Note: Maybe I shouldn't be passing on these helpful tips to atheists:- :-
Pure, unfounded rhetoric.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Atheists, are voluntarily helpful to Children and incurable people every day.[/p][/quote]Glad to hear of it, Ken. . They do this because, though they are unable to appreciate it, they are recipients of God's common grace to all humanity. . They love because they are made in the image of God of love, not a collection of accidental selfish genes. . Now, if they just got together and did it together, they'd have as much impact on society as do millions of churches across the globe. . Note: Maybe I shouldn't be passing on these helpful tips to atheists:- :-[/p][/quote]Pure, unfounded rhetoric. Joseph Yossarian

5:33pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

Well I'm about to eat my words. There is ample example of organised atheist charities that look to take the blights of society the rk thinks are only handled by religion.

http://humanistchari
ties.org/

http://www.the-brigh
ts.net/action/bright
sonly/secularist_cha
rities.htm

http://www.humanism.
org.uk/humanism/huma
nism-today/humanists
-doing/charities
Well I'm about to eat my words. There is ample example of organised atheist charities that look to take the blights of society the rk thinks are only handled by religion. http://humanistchari ties.org/ http://www.the-brigh ts.net/action/bright sonly/secularist_cha rities.htm http://www.humanism. org.uk/humanism/huma nism-today/humanists -doing/charities Joseph Yossarian

5:35pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Revkev wrote:
Ken Shuffles wrote: Atheists, are voluntarily helpful to Children and incurable people every day.
Glad to hear of it, Ken. . They do this because, though they are unable to appreciate it, they are recipients of God's common grace to all humanity. . They love because they are made in the image of God of love, not a collection of accidental selfish genes. . Now, if they just got together and did it together, they'd have as much impact on society as do millions of churches across the globe. . Note: Maybe I shouldn't be passing on these helpful tips to atheists:- :-
Kevin, Atheists can appreciate the common blessing of divine grace that is providing them with humanity.


Humanity without the common grace of a breath, the common grace of life, would be like the sound of one hand clapping.


.

Some Atheists appreciate the gift of life more than a book on god.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Atheists, are voluntarily helpful to Children and incurable people every day.[/p][/quote]Glad to hear of it, Ken. . They do this because, though they are unable to appreciate it, they are recipients of God's common grace to all humanity. . They love because they are made in the image of God of love, not a collection of accidental selfish genes. . Now, if they just got together and did it together, they'd have as much impact on society as do millions of churches across the globe. . Note: Maybe I shouldn't be passing on these helpful tips to atheists:- :-[/p][/quote]Kevin, Atheists can appreciate the common blessing of divine grace that is providing them with humanity. Humanity without the common grace of a breath, the common grace of life, would be like the sound of one hand clapping. . Some Atheists appreciate the gift of life more than a book on god. Ken Shuffles

5:38pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Joseph Yossarian wrote:
Well I'm about to eat my words. There is ample example of organised atheist charities that look to take the blights of society the rk thinks are only handled by religion. http://humanistchari ties.org/ http://www.the-brigh ts.net/action/bright sonly/secularist_cha rities.htm http://www.humanism. org.uk/humanism/huma nism-today/humanists -doing/charities
Plenty of NON BELIEVERS involved in the world food programme and water-aid etc. etc.
[quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: Well I'm about to eat my words. There is ample example of organised atheist charities that look to take the blights of society the rk thinks are only handled by religion. http://humanistchari ties.org/ http://www.the-brigh ts.net/action/bright sonly/secularist_cha rities.htm http://www.humanism. org.uk/humanism/huma nism-today/humanists -doing/charities[/p][/quote]Plenty of NON BELIEVERS involved in the world food programme and water-aid etc. etc. Ken Shuffles

5:39pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Some even work to establish peace on earth.
Some even work to establish peace on earth. Ken Shuffles

5:40pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Atheists Hope too.....
Atheists Hope too..... Ken Shuffles

5:42pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Christians are not the only people with a passion for perfection.
Christians are not the only people with a passion for perfection. Ken Shuffles

6:15pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Parly says...

“Now that would be interesting - to find out the faith-make-up of the NHS and Social Services”
.
I’d be interested to know the numbers too but having worked in and alongside NHS and Social Services staff for many years; I’d guess most are without “formal” religious belief.
.
Not having signed up to any particular religion allows them to be impartial and non-judgemental when dealing with people of all faiths. It wouldn’t be nice for you to have a devout Muslim treating you or arranging your care whilst being quite critical of your belief in God would it?
“Now that would be interesting - to find out the faith-make-up of the NHS and Social Services” . I’d be interested to know the numbers too but having worked in and alongside NHS and Social Services staff for many years; I’d guess most are without “formal” religious belief. . Not having signed up to any particular religion allows them to be impartial and non-judgemental when dealing with people of all faiths. It wouldn’t be nice for you to have a devout Muslim treating you or arranging your care whilst being quite critical of your belief in God would it? Parly

7:03pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Revkev says...

cocteaut wrote:
Athiests do good out of a sense of altruism.

The religious do good for personal reward in heaven.
Hi Cocteaut,
I've already acknowledge that atheists, individually, do good.
I pointed out that they love because they are created in the image of a loving God.
It's called Common Grace.
Mind you, I don't suppose the atheist is entirely happy with this explanation.
.
Regarding your second statement, Christianity is not about working for a reward, i.e. getting to heaven.
.
Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sins, which is why we call the day of his death GOOD Friday.
.
The good news is that when we come to him and accept him, God gives us eternal life starting here and now and continuing in heaven.
.
This is given for all God's children who have repented of being their own mini god and accepted Jesus as their saviour and God as their Father.
Because of this, Christians act in love to their fellow man because this is the best way of showing God's love, and loving God.
.
Now, that's classical Biblical Christianity.
.
What you may have come across is a sort of British folk Christianity which teaches that we have to be good to get to heaven.
This has done more damage to Christianity than anything else.
It portrays an ogre God dangling people over the pit of hell so scare them into repenting.
No wonder people have left churches in droves that teach and preach this rubbish.
Hope this helps, cocteaut
[quote][p][bold]cocteaut[/bold] wrote: Athiests do good out of a sense of altruism. The religious do good for personal reward in heaven.[/p][/quote]Hi Cocteaut, I've already acknowledge that atheists, individually, do good. I pointed out that they love because they are created in the image of a loving God. It's called Common Grace. Mind you, I don't suppose the atheist is entirely happy with this explanation. . Regarding your second statement, Christianity is not about working for a reward, i.e. getting to heaven. . Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sins, which is why we call the day of his death GOOD Friday. . The good news is that when we come to him and accept him, God gives us eternal life starting here and now and continuing in heaven. . This is given for all God's children who have repented of being their own mini god and accepted Jesus as their saviour and God as their Father. Because of this, Christians act in love to their fellow man because this is the best way of showing God's love, and loving God. . Now, that's classical Biblical Christianity. . What you may have come across is a sort of British folk Christianity which teaches that we have to be good to get to heaven. This has done more damage to Christianity than anything else. It portrays an ogre God dangling people over the pit of hell so scare them into repenting. No wonder people have left churches in droves that teach and preach this rubbish. Hope this helps, cocteaut Revkev

7:24pm Wed 14 Mar 12

stevejedi says...

Rev Kev, I really think you should give up on this one and retract your article. Your premise is that atheists should put up - ie help disadvantaged people and so forth - or shut up. Despite atheists not being an interest group like various christian cults, JY above has amply demonstrated that organised humanist groups do indeed carry out just this type of work. This is of course on top of the individual atheists who choose to work in caring jobs and also to work with or contribute to non religious charities or other good causes. It's no good using your introduced argument that atheists only do this because they are unknowingly moved by the hand of god. You said if atheists did contribute they were worth listening to. You can't then change the definition. Well to my mind the posts above have clearly demonstrated that atheists have made these contributions. We are not discussing faith here but facts so I would hope you have the decency to admit you are wrong, retract the article and apologise to the people who don't share your belief in god who you imply don't care for or help other people .
Rev Kev, I really think you should give up on this one and retract your article. Your premise is that atheists should put up - ie help disadvantaged people and so forth - or shut up. Despite atheists not being an interest group like various christian cults, JY above has amply demonstrated that organised humanist groups do indeed carry out just this type of work. This is of course on top of the individual atheists who choose to work in caring jobs and also to work with or contribute to non religious charities or other good causes. It's no good using your introduced argument that atheists only do this because they are unknowingly moved by the hand of god. You said if atheists did contribute they were worth listening to. You can't then change the definition. Well to my mind the posts above have clearly demonstrated that atheists have made these contributions. We are not discussing faith here but facts so I would hope you have the decency to admit you are wrong, retract the article and apologise to the people who don't share your belief in god who you imply don't care for or help other people . stevejedi

8:12pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

The rev has started with the premise that atheists as organised groups would get more attention from believers if their charity was organised.

The implication of such commentary is that people who subscribe to religions are more charitable.

The implication is that the religious are more charitable than the non religious. As usual it is a completely unevidenced position.

As is often the case when confronted about the rubbish he writes, the rev attempts to soften his position. This time it is done by referring to the good actions of individuals.

He also attempts to use the argument that atheists have god to thank for their goodness only they don't know it. This is not only a poor attempt to weasel out of his earlier position on the lack of charity not atheists, it also contradicts the basic premise of his earlier argument.
It is also condescending to atheists.

It is clear that the revs article is wrong. Completely wrong.
The rev has started with the premise that atheists as organised groups would get more attention from believers if their charity was organised. The implication of such commentary is that people who subscribe to religions are more charitable. The implication is that the religious are more charitable than the non religious. As usual it is a completely unevidenced position. As is often the case when confronted about the rubbish he writes, the rev attempts to soften his position. This time it is done by referring to the good actions of individuals. He also attempts to use the argument that atheists have god to thank for their goodness only they don't know it. This is not only a poor attempt to weasel out of his earlier position on the lack of charity not atheists, it also contradicts the basic premise of his earlier argument. It is also condescending to atheists. It is clear that the revs article is wrong. Completely wrong. Joseph Yossarian

8:14pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

http://givingaid.ric
harddawkins.net/
http://givingaid.ric harddawkins.net/ Joseph Yossarian

8:18pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

http://www.humanistf
eminist.com/p/humani
st-charities.html
http://www.humanistf eminist.com/p/humani st-charities.html Joseph Yossarian

8:20pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

http://www.humanistc
harities.com/haiti.p
hp
http://www.humanistc harities.com/haiti.p hp Joseph Yossarian

8:25pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

http://coreysviews.w
ordpress.com/2010/12
/22/list-of-atheist-
charities/
http://coreysviews.w ordpress.com/2010/12 /22/list-of-atheist- charities/ Joseph Yossarian

8:32pm Wed 14 Mar 12

stevejedi says...

JY, spot on. I think the rev has made a fool of himself here. Your analysis is correct. His attempt to muddy the waters by claiming atheists are guided by god unknowingly when doing good deeds is irrelevant is merely a wriggle to change the goalposts. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god. They are still an atheist even if the rev thinks they are moved by god. I hope the rev acknowledges the facts and admits his implications are incorrect.
JY, spot on. I think the rev has made a fool of himself here. Your analysis is correct. His attempt to muddy the waters by claiming atheists are guided by god unknowingly when doing good deeds is irrelevant is merely a wriggle to change the goalposts. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god. They are still an atheist even if the rev thinks they are moved by god. I hope the rev acknowledges the facts and admits his implications are incorrect. stevejedi

8:33pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

http://www.alternet.
org/belief/153900/wh
y_you_don't_need_god
_to_be_good%3A_the_r
ise_of_atheist_chari
ties?page=entire
http://www.alternet. org/belief/153900/wh y_you_don't_need_god _to_be_good%3A_the_r ise_of_atheist_chari ties?page=entire Joseph Yossarian

8:43pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

Bill gates foundation
Bill gates foundation Joseph Yossarian

8:51pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

http://www.centerfor
inquiry.net/news/sha
re_opens_fund_for_ha
iti_quake_relief
http://www.centerfor inquiry.net/news/sha re_opens_fund_for_ha iti_quake_relief Joseph Yossarian

9:01pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

The admittedly not impartial site secular humanism backs what I was thinking - namely that "religious charity" money often goes back into religion. So the faithful think that they are being all godly when in fact a big chunk if the cash goes back into the hands of their own or related institutions. This implies that non religious donations are more likely to go to the needy of society.
""
According to Daniel Chen, an economist at Duke University, some 90 percent of the money that Mormons give to charity goes to other Mormons, while 80 percent of evangelical Christian charity goes to other evangelical Christians. At the other end of the scale are Catholics (at 50 percent), but even Jews, who are the least discriminating in their charity, reserve 40 percent of it for their fellow Jews""
The admittedly not impartial site secular humanism backs what I was thinking - namely that "religious charity" money often goes back into religion. So the faithful think that they are being all godly when in fact a big chunk if the cash goes back into the hands of their own or related institutions. This implies that non religious donations are more likely to go to the needy of society. "" According to Daniel Chen, an economist at Duke University, some 90 percent of the money that Mormons give to charity goes to other Mormons, while 80 percent of evangelical Christian charity goes to other evangelical Christians. At the other end of the scale are Catholics (at 50 percent), but even Jews, who are the least discriminating in their charity, reserve 40 percent of it for their fellow Jews"" Joseph Yossarian

9:01pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

The admittedly not impartial site secular humanism backs what I was thinking - namely that "religious charity" money often goes back into religion. So the faithful think that they are being all godly when in fact a big chunk if the cash goes back into the hands of their own or related institutions. This implies that non religious donations are more likely to go to the needy of society.
""
According to Daniel Chen, an economist at Duke University, some 90 percent of the money that Mormons give to charity goes to other Mormons, while 80 percent of evangelical Christian charity goes to other evangelical Christians. At the other end of the scale are Catholics (at 50 percent), but even Jews, who are the least discriminating in their charity, reserve 40 percent of it for their fellow Jews""
The admittedly not impartial site secular humanism backs what I was thinking - namely that "religious charity" money often goes back into religion. So the faithful think that they are being all godly when in fact a big chunk if the cash goes back into the hands of their own or related institutions. This implies that non religious donations are more likely to go to the needy of society. "" According to Daniel Chen, an economist at Duke University, some 90 percent of the money that Mormons give to charity goes to other Mormons, while 80 percent of evangelical Christian charity goes to other evangelical Christians. At the other end of the scale are Catholics (at 50 percent), but even Jews, who are the least discriminating in their charity, reserve 40 percent of it for their fellow Jews"" Joseph Yossarian

9:18pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

1) Warren Buffett (atheist, donated $40.785 billion to “health, education, humanitarian causes”)

2) Bill & Melinda Gates (atheists, donated $27.602 billion to “global health and development, education”)

3) George Soros (atheist, donated $6.936 billion to “open and democratic societies”)
1) Warren Buffett (atheist, donated $40.785 billion to “health, education, humanitarian causes”) 2) Bill & Melinda Gates (atheists, donated $27.602 billion to “global health and development, education”) 3) George Soros (atheist, donated $6.936 billion to “open and democratic societies”) Joseph Yossarian

9:24pm Wed 14 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

Revkev wrote:
cocteaut wrote:
Athiests do good out of a sense of altruism.

The religious do good for personal reward in heaven.
Hi Cocteaut,
I've already acknowledge that atheists, individually, do good.
I pointed out that they love because they are created in the image of a loving God.
It's called Common Grace.
Mind you, I don't suppose the atheist is entirely happy with this explanation.
.
Regarding your second statement, Christianity is not about working for a reward, i.e. getting to heaven.
.
Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sins, which is why we call the day of his death GOOD Friday.
.
The good news is that when we come to him and accept him, God gives us eternal life starting here and now and continuing in heaven.
.
This is given for all God's children who have repented of being their own mini god and accepted Jesus as their saviour and God as their Father.
Because of this, Christians act in love to their fellow man because this is the best way of showing God's love, and loving God.
.
Now, that's classical Biblical Christianity.
.
What you may have come across is a sort of British folk Christianity which teaches that we have to be good to get to heaven.
This has done more damage to Christianity than anything else.
It portrays an ogre God dangling people over the pit of hell so scare them into repenting.
No wonder people have left churches in droves that teach and preach this rubbish.
Hope this helps, cocteaut
thats the "people's front of Judea" versus the "judean people's front" defence.

With apologies to monty python.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cocteaut[/bold] wrote: Athiests do good out of a sense of altruism. The religious do good for personal reward in heaven.[/p][/quote]Hi Cocteaut, I've already acknowledge that atheists, individually, do good. I pointed out that they love because they are created in the image of a loving God. It's called Common Grace. Mind you, I don't suppose the atheist is entirely happy with this explanation. . Regarding your second statement, Christianity is not about working for a reward, i.e. getting to heaven. . Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sins, which is why we call the day of his death GOOD Friday. . The good news is that when we come to him and accept him, God gives us eternal life starting here and now and continuing in heaven. . This is given for all God's children who have repented of being their own mini god and accepted Jesus as their saviour and God as their Father. Because of this, Christians act in love to their fellow man because this is the best way of showing God's love, and loving God. . Now, that's classical Biblical Christianity. . What you may have come across is a sort of British folk Christianity which teaches that we have to be good to get to heaven. This has done more damage to Christianity than anything else. It portrays an ogre God dangling people over the pit of hell so scare them into repenting. No wonder people have left churches in droves that teach and preach this rubbish. Hope this helps, cocteaut[/p][/quote]thats the "people's front of Judea" versus the "judean people's front" defence. With apologies to monty python. Joseph Yossarian

10:51pm Wed 14 Mar 12

stevejedi says...

Revkev wrote:
cocteaut wrote:
Athiests do good out of a sense of altruism.

The religious do good for personal reward in heaven.
Hi Cocteaut,
I've already acknowledge that atheists, individually, do good.
I pointed out that they love because they are created in the image of a loving God.
It's called Common Grace.
Mind you, I don't suppose the atheist is entirely happy with this explanation.
.
Regarding your second statement, Christianity is not about working for a reward, i.e. getting to heaven.
.
Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sins, which is why we call the day of his death GOOD Friday.
.
The good news is that when we come to him and accept him, God gives us eternal life starting here and now and continuing in heaven.
.
This is given for all God's children who have repented of being their own mini god and accepted Jesus as their saviour and God as their Father.
Because of this, Christians act in love to their fellow man because this is the best way of showing God's love, and loving God.
.
Now, that's classical Biblical Christianity.
.
What you may have come across is a sort of British folk Christianity which teaches that we have to be good to get to heaven.
This has done more damage to Christianity than anything else.
It portrays an ogre God dangling people over the pit of hell so scare them into repenting.
No wonder people have left churches in droves that teach and preach this rubbish.
Hope this helps, cocteaut
A very strange comment rev. What you are saying then as long as you accept god as your saviour and so on you can get away with all sorts of evil and still get your ticket to heaven. On the other hand if you are an atheist or even sign up for the wrong -Muslim; Jewish or buddist - god and lead a really good life then you don't get the ticket. Seems your version of god just wants a fan club and not peace on earth etc. Sounds positively medieval! Think I'll stick with atheism thanks.A very strange comment rev. What you are saying then as long as you accept god as your saviour and so on you can get away with all sorts of evil and still get your ticket to heaven. On the other hand if you are an atheist or even sign up for the wrong -Muslim; Jewish or buddist - god and lead a really good life then you don't get the ticket. Seems your version of god just wants a fan club and Onot peace on earth etc. Sounds positively medieval! Think I'll stick with atheism thanks.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cocteaut[/bold] wrote: Athiests do good out of a sense of altruism. The religious do good for personal reward in heaven.[/p][/quote]Hi Cocteaut, I've already acknowledge that atheists, individually, do good. I pointed out that they love because they are created in the image of a loving God. It's called Common Grace. Mind you, I don't suppose the atheist is entirely happy with this explanation. . Regarding your second statement, Christianity is not about working for a reward, i.e. getting to heaven. . Jesus came to pay the penalty for our sins, which is why we call the day of his death GOOD Friday. . The good news is that when we come to him and accept him, God gives us eternal life starting here and now and continuing in heaven. . This is given for all God's children who have repented of being their own mini god and accepted Jesus as their saviour and God as their Father. Because of this, Christians act in love to their fellow man because this is the best way of showing God's love, and loving God. . Now, that's classical Biblical Christianity. . What you may have come across is a sort of British folk Christianity which teaches that we have to be good to get to heaven. This has done more damage to Christianity than anything else. It portrays an ogre God dangling people over the pit of hell so scare them into repenting. No wonder people have left churches in droves that teach and preach this rubbish. Hope this helps, cocteaut[/p][/quote]A very strange comment rev. What you are saying then as long as you accept god as your saviour and so on you can get away with all sorts of evil and still get your ticket to heaven. On the other hand if you are an atheist or even sign up for the wrong -Muslim; Jewish or buddist - god and lead a really good life then you don't get the ticket. Seems your version of god just wants a fan club and not peace on earth etc. Sounds positively medieval! Think I'll stick with atheism thanks.A very strange comment rev. What you are saying then as long as you accept god as your saviour and so on you can get away with all sorts of evil and still get your ticket to heaven. On the other hand if you are an atheist or even sign up for the wrong -Muslim; Jewish or buddist - god and lead a really good life then you don't get the ticket. Seems your version of god just wants a fan club and Onot peace on earth etc. Sounds positively medieval! Think I'll stick with atheism thanks. stevejedi

12:00am Thu 15 Mar 12

ToffeeGuy says...

Revkev wrote:
ToffeeGuy wrote:
"If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth."

They do. They work for the NHS and Social Services and a 101 more secular organisations and charities.

Don't presume that only people of faith have a monopoly of compassion.
Hi ToffeeGuy,
Now that would be interesting - to find out the faith-make-up of the NHS and Social Services.
.
But you make a good point about atheists' contributing to the human bank of love and compassion. Thank you.
.
You might have a look at an earlier reply to Ken, about atheists having God's Common Grace. It's about four contributions before this one.
I'm not a fan of the 'Reformed' authors myself, but my next question may have something to do with Common Grace.

I know lots of people who lead good, wholesome lives without believing in God. They have never been to a religious service or visited a place of worship. Yet they are more kind and generous than many people I have met who do have a faith.

The question I have is this. Will these people be rewarded in Heaven?

If they will be, then what is the point of religion?

Will God punish those who do not believe in him but have led a blameless, good life which he would approve of?
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ToffeeGuy[/bold] wrote: "If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth." They do. They work for the NHS and Social Services and a 101 more secular organisations and charities. Don't presume that only people of faith have a monopoly of compassion.[/p][/quote]Hi ToffeeGuy, Now that would be interesting - to find out the faith-make-up of the NHS and Social Services. . But you make a good point about atheists' contributing to the human bank of love and compassion. Thank you. . You might have a look at an earlier reply to Ken, about atheists having God's Common Grace. It's about four contributions before this one.[/p][/quote]I'm not a fan of the 'Reformed' authors myself, but my next question may have something to do with Common Grace. I know lots of people who lead good, wholesome lives without believing in God. They have never been to a religious service or visited a place of worship. Yet they are more kind and generous than many people I have met who do have a faith. The question I have is this. Will these people be rewarded in Heaven? If they will be, then what is the point of religion? Will God punish those who do not believe in him but have led a blameless, good life which he would approve of? ToffeeGuy

10:48am Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Heaven is with us, and can be enjoyed by anyone who is alive and wants to enjoy Heaven while they are here.


.


Nobody has to be super-good or super-dead to enjoy all the Love, Peace, Joy, Clarity of Heaven.


Religion has been spinning it's lies for too long and the religious are always the ones who benefit the most from their elitist dogma, income streams, and make-deceive.
Heaven is with us, and can be enjoyed by anyone who is alive and wants to enjoy Heaven while they are here. . Nobody has to be super-good or super-dead to enjoy all the Love, Peace, Joy, Clarity of Heaven. Religion has been spinning it's lies for too long and the religious are always the ones who benefit the most from their elitist dogma, income streams, and make-deceive. Ken Shuffles

10:52am Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

All Mortals are born with a desire for Heaven while they are here, and all Mortals are distracted from the fulfillment of this one desire by religion while they are here.
All Mortals are born with a desire for Heaven while they are here, and all Mortals are distracted from the fulfillment of this one desire by religion while they are here. Ken Shuffles

10:54am Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

The first lesson Religion teaches us, is to doubt our own Perfection.
The first lesson Religion teaches us, is to doubt our own Perfection. Ken Shuffles

11:10am Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Kevin, are you interested in finding heaven, or just into wild explanations ?


.


We argue and kill over a solution, and we completely ignore in totality the immortal resource we are living with.
Kevin, are you interested in finding heaven, or just into wild explanations ? . We argue and kill over a solution, and we completely ignore in totality the immortal resource we are living with. Ken Shuffles

11:27am Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Atheist's have no more and no less common grace than the non-atheist's. Everyone on earth gets one breath at one time.
Atheist's have no more and no less common grace than the non-atheist's. Everyone on earth gets one breath at one time. Ken Shuffles

11:34am Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Apart from one day, everyone makes the world of visible appearances and assumption more important, and even more significant, than the feeling of Life that is creating it all for you.
Apart from one day, everyone makes the world of visible appearances and assumption more important, and even more significant, than the feeling of Life that is creating it all for you. Ken Shuffles

11:37am Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Have you invested in the rhetoric and ignoring the feeling.?
Have you invested in the rhetoric and ignoring the feeling.? Ken Shuffles

11:39am Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Have you been investing in the rhetoric and ignoring the simplest feeling.?
Have you been investing in the rhetoric and ignoring the simplest feeling.? Ken Shuffles

1:21pm Thu 15 Mar 12

Revkev says...

ToffeeGuy wrote:
Revkev wrote:
ToffeeGuy wrote:
"If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth."

They do. They work for the NHS and Social Services and a 101 more secular organisations and charities.

Don't presume that only people of faith have a monopoly of compassion.
Hi ToffeeGuy,
Now that would be interesting - to find out the faith-make-up of the NHS and Social Services.
.
But you make a good point about atheists' contributing to the human bank of love and compassion. Thank you.
.
You might have a look at an earlier reply to Ken, about atheists having God's Common Grace. It's about four contributions before this one.
I'm not a fan of the 'Reformed' authors myself, but my next question may have something to do with Common Grace.

I know lots of people who lead good, wholesome lives without believing in God. They have never been to a religious service or visited a place of worship. Yet they are more kind and generous than many people I have met who do have a faith.

The question I have is this. Will these people be rewarded in Heaven?

If they will be, then what is the point of religion?

Will God punish those who do not believe in him but have led a blameless, good life which he would approve of?
Hi Toffeeguy,
There are hints in Paul's letter to the Romans (Chapters 10 & 11) that those who know nothing of Jesus will be judge as to how they coped with the light that they received.
.
However, the main thrust of the New Testament is that each human needs to make a decision here and now about what he/she thinks of Jesus.
Do we accept him or reject him?
Is he to be our Lord and Saviour or are we going to retain those two titles for ourselves?
.
I know what you mean about those with faith who miss the mark as loving human beings.
This can happen when believers get hold of the wrong end of the Christian stick, especially true of those young in the faith or those badly taught, or those who just simply lose it.
We Christians are still sinners, even though we're trying to go God's way.
.
Christians are called upon to speak out against the world but to do so in love.
This is what I attempt, but I wouldn't say I do it perfectly, though I try. I do sometimes feel stretched, and my patience is by no means as elastic as it should be.
[quote][p][bold]ToffeeGuy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ToffeeGuy[/bold] wrote: "If atheists came to the rescue of 70,000 struggling families on a daily basis, if they got together to help drug addicts, down-and-outs, alcoholics and broken families, maybe we might heed their words and not dismiss them as myth." They do. They work for the NHS and Social Services and a 101 more secular organisations and charities. Don't presume that only people of faith have a monopoly of compassion.[/p][/quote]Hi ToffeeGuy, Now that would be interesting - to find out the faith-make-up of the NHS and Social Services. . But you make a good point about atheists' contributing to the human bank of love and compassion. Thank you. . You might have a look at an earlier reply to Ken, about atheists having God's Common Grace. It's about four contributions before this one.[/p][/quote]I'm not a fan of the 'Reformed' authors myself, but my next question may have something to do with Common Grace. I know lots of people who lead good, wholesome lives without believing in God. They have never been to a religious service or visited a place of worship. Yet they are more kind and generous than many people I have met who do have a faith. The question I have is this. Will these people be rewarded in Heaven? If they will be, then what is the point of religion? Will God punish those who do not believe in him but have led a blameless, good life which he would approve of?[/p][/quote]Hi Toffeeguy, There are hints in Paul's letter to the Romans (Chapters 10 & 11) that those who know nothing of Jesus will be judge as to how they coped with the light that they received. . However, the main thrust of the New Testament is that each human needs to make a decision here and now about what he/she thinks of Jesus. Do we accept him or reject him? Is he to be our Lord and Saviour or are we going to retain those two titles for ourselves? . I know what you mean about those with faith who miss the mark as loving human beings. This can happen when believers get hold of the wrong end of the Christian stick, especially true of those young in the faith or those badly taught, or those who just simply lose it. We Christians are still sinners, even though we're trying to go God's way. . Christians are called upon to speak out against the world but to do so in love. This is what I attempt, but I wouldn't say I do it perfectly, though I try. I do sometimes feel stretched, and my patience is by no means as elastic as it should be. Revkev

1:45pm Thu 15 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

stevejedi wrote:
JY, spot on. I think the rev has made a fool of himself here. Your analysis is correct. His attempt to muddy the waters by claiming atheists are guided by god unknowingly when doing good deeds is irrelevant is merely a wriggle to change the goalposts. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god. They are still an atheist even if the rev thinks they are moved by god. I hope the rev acknowledges the facts and admits his implications are incorrect.
An example of why I think RK should keep his weekly column. It shows him and beliefs for what they really are. It shows the inherent and obvious contraditions of his so-called beliefs.
[quote][p][bold]stevejedi[/bold] wrote: JY, spot on. I think the rev has made a fool of himself here. Your analysis is correct. His attempt to muddy the waters by claiming atheists are guided by god unknowingly when doing good deeds is irrelevant is merely a wriggle to change the goalposts. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god. They are still an atheist even if the rev thinks they are moved by god. I hope the rev acknowledges the facts and admits his implications are incorrect.[/p][/quote]An example of why I think RK should keep his weekly column. It shows him and beliefs for what they really are. It shows the inherent and obvious contraditions of his so-called beliefs. Joseph Yossarian

2:39pm Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Kevin, cast your mind back and I think you will find it was Jesus who accepted you, found you, and didn't reject you.


.


You certainly didn't understand him when he spoke, and he never wrote anything down himself.


.


You may have done a lot of reading, and there is always hope, but judging from what you write, I'm not sure you've actually done any accepting at all yet to be honest Kevin.
Kevin, cast your mind back and I think you will find it was Jesus who accepted you, found you, and didn't reject you. . You certainly didn't understand him when he spoke, and he never wrote anything down himself. . You may have done a lot of reading, and there is always hope, but judging from what you write, I'm not sure you've actually done any accepting at all yet to be honest Kevin. Ken Shuffles

2:47pm Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

If you can show me Jesus, I will let you know how I feel about the reality he represents without making any pre-conceived assumptions based on the writings and hearsays and editings of other 2000 year old people, whom I also have not met and doubt you have.


.


Writing is a fad, and whatever fad can peter in can also be petered out.
If you can show me Jesus, I will let you know how I feel about the reality he represents without making any pre-conceived assumptions based on the writings and hearsays and editings of other 2000 year old people, whom I also have not met and doubt you have. . Writing is a fad, and whatever fad can peter in can also be petered out. Ken Shuffles

3:16pm Thu 15 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Christianity has no example of Heaven or any other reality.
Christianity has no example of Heaven or any other reality. Ken Shuffles

7:06pm Fri 16 Mar 12

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
Kevin, cast your mind back and I think you will find it was Jesus who accepted you, found you, and didn't reject you.


.


You certainly didn't understand him when he spoke, and he never wrote anything down himself.


.


You may have done a lot of reading, and there is always hope, but judging from what you write, I'm not sure you've actually done any accepting at all yet to be honest Kevin.
Hi Ken
You have a good point.
Jesus accepts you and me, plus Joe, Carlost and everybody else.
.
However, there is a decision to be made on our part. Would I accept him?
.
'course, when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, I felt I had but a tiny choice.
It just seemed so obvious who he was, and so amazing what he was offering in salvation, abundant life and joy and purpose in life.
.
In fact, it did not seem like much of a decision.
The biblical truth is that God gives us faith to accept him, when we ask with all our heart; when we seek with every fibre of our being.
.
When I approached God, the notice over the gate seemed to say, "Choose you this day."
When I entered and looked back, the notice seemed to have changed into "I chose you".
.
It's an old argument about predestination.
Does God do the choosing or do we?
I suspect that it was God's decision and mine, but mine seemed real easy to make because of what he showed me.
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Kevin, cast your mind back and I think you will find it was Jesus who accepted you, found you, and didn't reject you. . You certainly didn't understand him when he spoke, and he never wrote anything down himself. . You may have done a lot of reading, and there is always hope, but judging from what you write, I'm not sure you've actually done any accepting at all yet to be honest Kevin.[/p][/quote]Hi Ken You have a good point. Jesus accepts you and me, plus Joe, Carlost and everybody else. . However, there is a decision to be made on our part. Would I accept him? . 'course, when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, I felt I had but a tiny choice. It just seemed so obvious who he was, and so amazing what he was offering in salvation, abundant life and joy and purpose in life. . In fact, it did not seem like much of a decision. The biblical truth is that God gives us faith to accept him, when we ask with all our heart; when we seek with every fibre of our being. . When I approached God, the notice over the gate seemed to say, "Choose you this day." When I entered and looked back, the notice seemed to have changed into "I chose you". . It's an old argument about predestination. Does God do the choosing or do we? I suspect that it was God's decision and mine, but mine seemed real easy to make because of what he showed me. Revkev

7:12pm Fri 16 Mar 12

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
If you can show me Jesus, I will let you know how I feel about the reality he represents without making any pre-conceived assumptions based on the writings and hearsays and editings of other 2000 year old people, whom I also have not met and doubt you have.


.


Writing is a fad, and whatever fad can peter in can also be petered out.
Ken,
Is then your writings a fad which will peter out?
.
You seem to take your own writings very seriously but not those of others.
.
Are we to accept that you're just a passing fad, Ken?
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: If you can show me Jesus, I will let you know how I feel about the reality he represents without making any pre-conceived assumptions based on the writings and hearsays and editings of other 2000 year old people, whom I also have not met and doubt you have. . Writing is a fad, and whatever fad can peter in can also be petered out.[/p][/quote]Ken, Is then your writings a fad which will peter out? . You seem to take your own writings very seriously but not those of others. . Are we to accept that you're just a passing fad, Ken? Revkev

11:16am Sat 17 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Only your life does not pass away. The writings of the world, and the past will one day pass away.


.


I don't take my writing seriously. It's just writing, it doesn't change the world and I seriously doubt it has much effect on anyone.
Only your life does not pass away. The writings of the world, and the past will one day pass away. . I don't take my writing seriously. It's just writing, it doesn't change the world and I seriously doubt it has much effect on anyone. Ken Shuffles

11:25am Sat 17 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

I take the gift of breath, of life, more seriously than reading and writing resources.


Nobody, has to ask for a breath in the correct manner before they get one.
I take the gift of breath, of life, more seriously than reading and writing resources. Nobody, has to ask for a breath in the correct manner before they get one. Ken Shuffles

3:39pm Sun 18 Mar 12

Joseph Yossarian says...

Well, I was wondering if RK was going to man up and apologise for being incorrect. Disappointed, but not surprised, that the has not had the grace to do so. No doubt RK will soon grace us with another anti atheist or homophobic column.
Well, I was wondering if RK was going to man up and apologise for being incorrect. Disappointed, but not surprised, that the has not had the grace to do so. No doubt RK will soon grace us with another anti atheist or homophobic column. Joseph Yossarian

3:37pm Mon 19 Mar 12

Carlost says...

Ouch! That is a little bit nasty for a christian soul! Now Revkev Im sure you have lived long enough to know that many non-believers are good people and do good and kind things and many people of faith have done terrible attrocities, history and present day conflicts attest to that. Atheists or atheism is not a church or a group or consolidated movement like your religion, even though you try to portray it as such.Atheist just prefer to base their beliefs on natural evidence and the scientific method. The scientific method has done more practical and emotional good for mankind than any amout of praying and wishfull thinking ever did. Through chemistry it has given us medicines and understanding of disease and social hygiene. Through electricity and physics it has built our cities, given us light and communication. Via evolution it has given us an understanding of DNA and other physiological processes to help us create bumper crops and feed the starving. Via Physics and aerodynamics it has built rockets and planes so that we can inderstand our planet and predict the weather patterns, saving many lives. I could go on and on. Many scientific discoveries were made in spite of retarded religious beliefs and dogma. I've said this before, good people will do good thigs and bad people will do bad things whether they are believers, atheist or otherwise. Your premise that only people faith do good things is wrong and insulting and only demeans yourself, shame on you.
Ouch! That is a little bit nasty for a christian soul! Now Revkev Im sure you have lived long enough to know that many non-believers are good people and do good and kind things and many people of faith have done terrible attrocities, history and present day conflicts attest to that. Atheists or atheism is not a church or a group or consolidated movement like your religion, even though you try to portray it as such.Atheist just prefer to base their beliefs on natural evidence and the scientific method. The scientific method has done more practical and emotional good for mankind than any amout of praying and wishfull thinking ever did. Through chemistry it has given us medicines and understanding of disease and social hygiene. Through electricity and physics it has built our cities, given us light and communication. Via evolution it has given us an understanding of DNA and other physiological processes to help us create bumper crops and feed the starving. Via Physics and aerodynamics it has built rockets and planes so that we can inderstand our planet and predict the weather patterns, saving many lives. I could go on and on. Many scientific discoveries were made in spite of retarded religious beliefs and dogma. I've said this before, good people will do good thigs and bad people will do bad things whether they are believers, atheist or otherwise. Your premise that only people faith do good things is wrong and insulting and only demeans yourself, shame on you. Carlost

7:41pm Mon 19 Mar 12

VioletVision says...

Yet again the Reverend (although his attitudes show very little reverence) seems to be spewing from his godfilled backside.

Let me take each part of his response to the lecture:

"It was a sermon to the God of Science.
It viewed all man's achievements and advances in terms of science and saw all future solutions to the economy, industry and commerce of scientific terms."

Just because the Reverend sees the world only through the eyes of his god, he seems to think that is how everyone thinks. How blinkered.
Man would still be in the dark ages without advances due to science. Science looks at evidence and experimentation. Religion has done very little to advance humanity. Religion looks at control and fear, with a pinch of 'look after others' - particularly if you can convert them ;)


"The sadness came in realising that he really believes that science will be humanity's saviour."

Well nothing else is going to be! Science has saved millions of lives, improved billions of others. Religion certainly won't be humanity's saviour.
Until humanity realises that it is the author of it's own destiny it is going to be difficult for things to change. People need to stop demanding that everyone else believes exactly what they believe. But this will never happen.

"It is wonderful, far-reaching, amazing, yet can it change the greed of economists and bakers?"
Can anything do this? Religion certainly can't. Why would anyone expect any one thing to be able to do this - It just shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexity of the subject. (And those greedy bakers are swines, keeping all their hard baked bread to themselves.)

"Can it stop wars, or leaders being corrupted by power, or the rich living off the poor?"

Now with this one Rev you really could be losing. As scientists who develop GM crops are doing a lot to prevent wars due to famine. Scientists who develop medication, vaccines and prophylactics have done a lot to prevent wars due to disease.
Whilst Religion has been the author of many a war over the history of humanity. Religions really lose the argument when it comes to warmongering.

Science may not be able to stop people from being corrupted, but it certainly does not encourage corruption like the church. A church who perpetuates abuse on a global scale.

And science cannot prevent rich people (like church heirarchy) living off the poor. This is something that the church has learnt to do with aplomb over the two millenia it has peddled it's twaddle to poor unsuspecting and vulnerable people. It is still doing it to this day. There is no moral high ground for religions.

"I could almost cry at what this amazing knight has left out."

I could almost cry at what the reverend is blind to.

"This world needs a saviour that can change human nature and science will never ever get near that. Not with anything like the power that God shows in Jesus Christ as his Holy Spirit enters into human souls."

This world needs humans to realise that they have a responsibility to be good to themselves and others. Science can show how we are all the same but different.

The Reverend says that the world needs a saviour - well we are meant to have had one already and that hasn't done much for the progress of humanity. There is no evidence of god, jesus christ, the holy spirit or souls. The power of empathy and humanity is what will save us and it is up to each individual to recognise this. It is everyone's responsibility to develop this - get out and meet the marvellous general public.

I act with humanity because I am a human, not because of a religion or a human construct of 'common grace'.
Yet again the Reverend (although his attitudes show very little reverence) seems to be spewing from his godfilled backside. Let me take each part of his response to the lecture: "It was a sermon to the God of Science. It viewed all man's achievements and advances in terms of science and saw all future solutions to the economy, industry and commerce of scientific terms." Just because the Reverend sees the world only through the eyes of his god, he seems to think that is how everyone thinks. How blinkered. Man would still be in the dark ages without advances due to science. Science looks at evidence and experimentation. Religion has done very little to advance humanity. Religion looks at control and fear, with a pinch of 'look after others' - particularly if you can convert them ;) "The sadness came in realising that he really believes that science will be humanity's saviour." Well nothing else is going to be! Science has saved millions of lives, improved billions of others. Religion certainly won't be humanity's saviour. Until humanity realises that it is the author of it's own destiny it is going to be difficult for things to change. People need to stop demanding that everyone else believes exactly what they believe. But this will never happen. "It is wonderful, far-reaching, amazing, yet can it change the greed of economists and bakers?" Can anything do this? Religion certainly can't. Why would anyone expect any one thing to be able to do this - It just shows a complete lack of understanding of the complexity of the subject. (And those greedy bakers are swines, keeping all their hard baked bread to themselves.) "Can it stop wars, or leaders being corrupted by power, or the rich living off the poor?" Now with this one Rev you really could be losing. As scientists who develop GM crops are doing a lot to prevent wars due to famine. Scientists who develop medication, vaccines and prophylactics have done a lot to prevent wars due to disease. Whilst Religion has been the author of many a war over the history of humanity. Religions really lose the argument when it comes to warmongering. Science may not be able to stop people from being corrupted, but it certainly does not encourage corruption like the church. A church who perpetuates abuse on a global scale. And science cannot prevent rich people (like church heirarchy) living off the poor. This is something that the church has learnt to do with aplomb over the two millenia it has peddled it's twaddle to poor unsuspecting and vulnerable people. It is still doing it to this day. There is no moral high ground for religions. "I could almost cry at what this amazing knight has left out." I could almost cry at what the reverend is blind to. "This world needs a saviour that can change human nature and science will never ever get near that. Not with anything like the power that God shows in Jesus Christ as his Holy Spirit enters into human souls." This world needs humans to realise that they have a responsibility to be good to themselves and others. Science can show how we are all the same but different. The Reverend says that the world needs a saviour - well we are meant to have had one already and that hasn't done much for the progress of humanity. There is no evidence of god, jesus christ, the holy spirit or souls. The power of empathy and humanity is what will save us and it is up to each individual to recognise this. It is everyone's responsibility to develop this - get out and meet the marvellous general public. I act with humanity because I am a human, not because of a religion or a human construct of 'common grace'. VioletVision

11:19am Tue 20 Mar 12

Ken Shuffles says...

A real saviour will remove all obstacles to Perfection.
A real saviour will remove all obstacles to Perfection. Ken Shuffles

12:28am Wed 21 Mar 12

BIGGLESTOE says...

Strange ways! Still open minded!
Strange ways! Still open minded! BIGGLESTOE

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