Almost a victory in battle to express faith

Great news! A Christian driver called Colin, sacked in April for displaying a palm cross in his van for 15 years which might offend other faiths, has been reinstated.

Thousands wrote in to complain, some from East Lancashire, and Christian Concern took up the cudgel to negotiate the man’s return, with even permission to carry on displaying his cross. An answer to much prayer, it seemed.

Now, the not-so-great news. He was suspended again last week after his van was taken off him and he was moved to a different workplace 16 miles from home, difficult to reach without transport.

He is one of a dozen or so Christians who have lost jobs because of their beliefs. Others include foster parents, a counsellor, a magistrate and even a marriage registrar.

“I thought common sense had triumphed when the company agreed I could go back to work,” the driver explained after his latest suspension, “but there is still a lot of hostility against me, even though I have done nothing more than defend the basic rights of Christians to express their faith in public.”

He was offered an early retirement package so long as he agreed to a gagging order, preventing public comments. He was suspended when he refused the deal saying, “I will not be gagged.”

One suspects parts of England are somewhat embarrassed by its Christian heritage.

Comments (29)

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2:25pm Sun 7 Aug 11

JohnnyDale says...

Yet another dose of dishonest propaganda from the religious apologists.

None of these wannabe Christian martyrs lost their jobs because they were Christians, they lost their jobs because they didn't want to follow the same rules and laws as everyone else. When they found they couldn't they teamed up with the extremist activists at the Christian Institute and wasted millions in public money on frivolous court cases. The CI, along with the CLC and other similar groups surely know they haven't a leg to stand on in these cases, but they think that if they keep making these claims that some of the public will start to think there's something to them.

You'd better sit down Mr Logan, because this may come as a bit of a shock to you (because we all know how easily your sort get "offended"), but the simple fact is that even though you seem to think that you're somehow special, and so can pick and choose which laws apply to you, this is not the case. There has to be one law for all, that applies equally to everyone - whether or not they claim to believe this or that set of frankfully preposterous things about the nature of reality.
Yet another dose of dishonest propaganda from the religious apologists. None of these wannabe Christian martyrs lost their jobs because they were Christians, they lost their jobs because they didn't want to follow the same rules and laws as everyone else. When they found they couldn't they teamed up with the extremist activists at the Christian Institute and wasted millions in public money on frivolous court cases. The CI, along with the CLC and other similar groups surely know they haven't a leg to stand on in these cases, but they think that if they keep making these claims that some of the public will start to think there's something to them. You'd better sit down Mr Logan, because this may come as a bit of a shock to you (because we all know how easily your sort get "offended"), but the simple fact is that even though you seem to think that you're somehow special, and so can pick and choose which laws apply to you, this is not the case. There has to be one law for all, that applies equally to everyone - whether or not they claim to believe this or that set of frankfully preposterous things about the nature of reality. JohnnyDale

3:17pm Sun 7 Aug 11

Parly says...

Stop belming Kev. You keep saying how Christians are being persecuted because of their beliefs when it has nothing whatsoever to do with beliefs.
.
Colin Atkinson worked for a company whose policy prohibits employees from displaying personal items in vehicles and instead of just going “Fair enough – it’s the same rule for everyone”, he got all “I’m doing this because I want to prove a point and I’m bloody awkward”.
.
My husband’s office has a policy that prohibits staff from having pictures or posters of ANY description on desks and walls etc because being a predominantly male workforce, there used to be a tendency for some chaps to bring in whatever poster the Daily Star has to offer its readers. This means no photos of the wife on holiday or a drawing their children did for them etc but that’s how it is.
.
Most people will grumble about certain rules in the workplace but it’s the workplace of several others – not their own little private Idaho.
Stop belming Kev. You keep saying how Christians are being persecuted because of their beliefs when it has nothing whatsoever to do with beliefs. . Colin Atkinson worked for a company whose policy prohibits employees from displaying personal items in vehicles and instead of just going “Fair enough – it’s the same rule for everyone”, he got all “I’m doing this because I want to prove a point and I’m bloody awkward”. . My husband’s office has a policy that prohibits staff from having pictures or posters of ANY description on desks and walls etc because being a predominantly male workforce, there used to be a tendency for some chaps to bring in whatever poster the Daily Star has to offer its readers. This means no photos of the wife on holiday or a drawing their children did for them etc but that’s how it is. . Most people will grumble about certain rules in the workplace but it’s the workplace of several others – not their own little private Idaho. Parly

4:04pm Sun 7 Aug 11

Revkev says...

JohnnyDale wrote:
Yet another dose of dishonest propaganda from the religious apologists.

None of these wannabe Christian martyrs lost their jobs because they were Christians, they lost their jobs because they didn't want to follow the same rules and laws as everyone else. When they found they couldn't they teamed up with the extremist activists at the Christian Institute and wasted millions in public money on frivolous court cases. The CI, along with the CLC and other similar groups surely know they haven't a leg to stand on in these cases, but they think that if they keep making these claims that some of the public will start to think there's something to them.

You'd better sit down Mr Logan, because this may come as a bit of a shock to you (because we all know how easily your sort get "offended"), but the simple fact is that even though you seem to think that you're somehow special, and so can pick and choose which laws apply to you, this is not the case. There has to be one law for all, that applies equally to everyone - whether or not they claim to believe this or that set of frankfully preposterous things about the nature of reality.
Hello Johnny,
A couple of points you overlook.
****
1. It seems reasonable to point out that Christians and their jobs are being affected because society's rule changes are against Christian principles.
This is quite a change in a country that has historically regarded itself as Christian.
When a Christian cannot freely work in the public arena and remain loyal to her/his beliefs, then that seems worthy of note.
And I don't see anything dishonest in that, as you suggest.
Merely an honest comment on how modern society is changing.
****
2. You suggest I sit down and shut up with regard to the new laws which run counter to our Christian heritage.
Sorry, Johnny.
No.
I shall continue to write about what I think is wrong, and of course you have the right to do the same.
As you know, it's called freedom, and I think I'll exercise it until modern liberal society bans that too.
[quote][p][bold]JohnnyDale[/bold] wrote: Yet another dose of dishonest propaganda from the religious apologists. None of these wannabe Christian martyrs lost their jobs because they were Christians, they lost their jobs because they didn't want to follow the same rules and laws as everyone else. When they found they couldn't they teamed up with the extremist activists at the Christian Institute and wasted millions in public money on frivolous court cases. The CI, along with the CLC and other similar groups surely know they haven't a leg to stand on in these cases, but they think that if they keep making these claims that some of the public will start to think there's something to them. You'd better sit down Mr Logan, because this may come as a bit of a shock to you (because we all know how easily your sort get "offended"), but the simple fact is that even though you seem to think that you're somehow special, and so can pick and choose which laws apply to you, this is not the case. There has to be one law for all, that applies equally to everyone - whether or not they claim to believe this or that set of frankfully preposterous things about the nature of reality.[/p][/quote]Hello Johnny, A couple of points you overlook. **** 1. It seems reasonable to point out that Christians and their jobs are being affected because society's rule changes are against Christian principles. This is quite a change in a country that has historically regarded itself as Christian. When a Christian cannot freely work in the public arena and remain loyal to her/his beliefs, then that seems worthy of note. And I don't see anything dishonest in that, as you suggest. Merely an honest comment on how modern society is changing. **** 2. You suggest I sit down and shut up with regard to the new laws which run counter to our Christian heritage. Sorry, Johnny. No. I shall continue to write about what I think is wrong, and of course you have the right to do the same. As you know, it's called freedom, and I think I'll exercise it until modern liberal society bans that too. Revkev

4:20pm Sun 7 Aug 11

Revkev says...

Parly wrote:
Stop belming Kev. You keep saying how Christians are being persecuted because of their beliefs when it has nothing whatsoever to do with beliefs.
.
Colin Atkinson worked for a company whose policy prohibits employees from displaying personal items in vehicles and instead of just going “Fair enough – it’s the same rule for everyone”, he got all “I’m doing this because I want to prove a point and I’m bloody awkward”.
.
My husband’s office has a policy that prohibits staff from having pictures or posters of ANY description on desks and walls etc because being a predominantly male workforce, there used to be a tendency for some chaps to bring in whatever poster the Daily Star has to offer its readers. This means no photos of the wife on holiday or a drawing their children did for them etc but that’s how it is.
.
Most people will grumble about certain rules in the workplace but it’s the workplace of several others – not their own little private Idaho.
Hi Parly,
First, Colin had displayed a palm cross in his cabin for the previous 15 years without a problem.
I'm given to understand that there was no rule about it when he started.
Have you heard differently?
****
Second, Are you sure he said...
"I'm doing this because I want to prove a point and I'm bloody awkward" or is that your personal take on the situation?
xxxxx
Third, Could it not possibly have been that he was simply a Christian who was grateful to Jesus for saving him on the cross and he wanted to keep the cross as a reminder?
xxxxx
Fourth,
Belming "consisting of inserting the tongue between the lower lip and teeth, producing a comic swelling of the lower jaw area."
You're quite right to complain about this, Parly.
Telegraph columnists have a duty to their public, and I shall refrain in future columns.
[quote][p][bold]Parly[/bold] wrote: Stop belming Kev. You keep saying how Christians are being persecuted because of their beliefs when it has nothing whatsoever to do with beliefs. . Colin Atkinson worked for a company whose policy prohibits employees from displaying personal items in vehicles and instead of just going “Fair enough – it’s the same rule for everyone”, he got all “I’m doing this because I want to prove a point and I’m bloody awkward”. . My husband’s office has a policy that prohibits staff from having pictures or posters of ANY description on desks and walls etc because being a predominantly male workforce, there used to be a tendency for some chaps to bring in whatever poster the Daily Star has to offer its readers. This means no photos of the wife on holiday or a drawing their children did for them etc but that’s how it is. . Most people will grumble about certain rules in the workplace but it’s the workplace of several others – not their own little private Idaho.[/p][/quote]Hi Parly, First, Colin had displayed a palm cross in his cabin for the previous 15 years without a problem. I'm given to understand that there was no rule about it when he started. Have you heard differently? **** Second, Are you sure he said... "I'm doing this because I want to prove a point and I'm bloody awkward" or is that your personal take on the situation? xxxxx Third, Could it not possibly have been that he was simply a Christian who was grateful to Jesus for saving him on the cross and he wanted to keep the cross as a reminder? xxxxx Fourth, Belming "consisting of inserting the tongue between the lower lip and teeth, producing a comic swelling of the lower jaw area." You're quite right to complain about this, Parly. Telegraph columnists have a duty to their public, and I shall refrain in future columns. Revkev

7:58pm Sun 7 Aug 11

JohnnyDale says...

Revkev wrote:
JohnnyDale wrote:
Yet another dose of dishonest propaganda from the religious apologists.

None of these wannabe Christian martyrs lost their jobs because they were Christians, they lost their jobs because they didn't want to follow the same rules and laws as everyone else. When they found they couldn't they teamed up with the extremist activists at the Christian Institute and wasted millions in public money on frivolous court cases. The CI, along with the CLC and other similar groups surely know they haven't a leg to stand on in these cases, but they think that if they keep making these claims that some of the public will start to think there's something to them.

You'd better sit down Mr Logan, because this may come as a bit of a shock to you (because we all know how easily your sort get "offended"), but the simple fact is that even though you seem to think that you're somehow special, and so can pick and choose which laws apply to you, this is not the case. There has to be one law for all, that applies equally to everyone - whether or not they claim to believe this or that set of frankfully preposterous things about the nature of reality.
Hello Johnny,
A couple of points you overlook.
****
1. It seems reasonable to point out that Christians and their jobs are being affected because society's rule changes are against Christian principles.
This is quite a change in a country that has historically regarded itself as Christian.
When a Christian cannot freely work in the public arena and remain loyal to her/his beliefs, then that seems worthy of note.
And I don't see anything dishonest in that, as you suggest.
Merely an honest comment on how modern society is changing.
****
2. You suggest I sit down and shut up with regard to the new laws which run counter to our Christian heritage.
Sorry, Johnny.
No.
I shall continue to write about what I think is wrong, and of course you have the right to do the same.
As you know, it's called freedom, and I think I'll exercise it until modern liberal society bans that too.
"Christians and their jobs are being affected because society's rule changes are against Christian principles."

Could you point out how having a rule about not displaying personal items on a company van is against Christian priniples please.

"When a Christian cannot freely work in the public arena and remain loyal to her/his beliefs, then that seems worthy of note."

A Christian is EXACTLY as free as anyone else to work in the public arena and stay true to what you believe. That is the whole point - you are demanding more freedom than anyone else - the freedom to pick and choose which rules to follow and which to cast aside. I can just imagine the chorus of outrage that would erupt if any other group demanded the right to discriminate against Christians.

"And I don't see anything dishonest in that, as you suggest."

Once again - None of these wannabe Christian martyrs lost their jobs because they were Christians, they lost their jobs because they didn't want to follow the same rules and laws as everyone else.

"You suggest I sit down and shut up with regard to the new laws which run counter to our Christian heritage."

Perhaps you'd be good enough to point out where I said anything about shutting up. You have as much right as anyone to an opinion - although of course the nature of your job means that you get a free megaphone - for example a regular column in the Telegraph.

"As you know, it's called freedom, and I think I'll exercise it until modern liberal society bans that too."

Oh the irony - it's painful.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]JohnnyDale[/bold] wrote: Yet another dose of dishonest propaganda from the religious apologists. None of these wannabe Christian martyrs lost their jobs because they were Christians, they lost their jobs because they didn't want to follow the same rules and laws as everyone else. When they found they couldn't they teamed up with the extremist activists at the Christian Institute and wasted millions in public money on frivolous court cases. The CI, along with the CLC and other similar groups surely know they haven't a leg to stand on in these cases, but they think that if they keep making these claims that some of the public will start to think there's something to them. You'd better sit down Mr Logan, because this may come as a bit of a shock to you (because we all know how easily your sort get "offended"), but the simple fact is that even though you seem to think that you're somehow special, and so can pick and choose which laws apply to you, this is not the case. There has to be one law for all, that applies equally to everyone - whether or not they claim to believe this or that set of frankfully preposterous things about the nature of reality.[/p][/quote]Hello Johnny, A couple of points you overlook. **** 1. It seems reasonable to point out that Christians and their jobs are being affected because society's rule changes are against Christian principles. This is quite a change in a country that has historically regarded itself as Christian. When a Christian cannot freely work in the public arena and remain loyal to her/his beliefs, then that seems worthy of note. And I don't see anything dishonest in that, as you suggest. Merely an honest comment on how modern society is changing. **** 2. You suggest I sit down and shut up with regard to the new laws which run counter to our Christian heritage. Sorry, Johnny. No. I shall continue to write about what I think is wrong, and of course you have the right to do the same. As you know, it's called freedom, and I think I'll exercise it until modern liberal society bans that too.[/p][/quote]"Christians and their jobs are being affected because society's rule changes are against Christian principles." Could you point out how having a rule about not displaying personal items on a company van is against Christian priniples please. "When a Christian cannot freely work in the public arena and remain loyal to her/his beliefs, then that seems worthy of note." A Christian is EXACTLY as free as anyone else to work in the public arena and stay true to what you believe. That is the whole point - you are demanding more freedom than anyone else - the freedom to pick and choose which rules to follow and which to cast aside. I can just imagine the chorus of outrage that would erupt if any other group demanded the right to discriminate against Christians. "And I don't see anything dishonest in that, as you suggest." Once again - None of these wannabe Christian martyrs lost their jobs because they were Christians, they lost their jobs because they didn't want to follow the same rules and laws as everyone else. "You suggest I sit down and shut up with regard to the new laws which run counter to our Christian heritage." Perhaps you'd be good enough to point out where I said anything about shutting up. You have as much right as anyone to an opinion - although of course the nature of your job means that you get a free megaphone - for example a regular column in the Telegraph. "As you know, it's called freedom, and I think I'll exercise it until modern liberal society bans that too." Oh the irony - it's painful. JohnnyDale

8:06pm Sun 7 Aug 11

l m h jones says...

if Christian principals mean that it is okay to say that gay people cannot foster or adopt or have civil partnerships or turn to relate councillors because of their sexuality then i am afraid that it is Christianity or the version of it that thinks discrimination on the grounds of a persons sexuality is okay which is wrong.
if Christian principals mean that it is okay to say that gay people cannot foster or adopt or have civil partnerships or turn to relate councillors because of their sexuality then i am afraid that it is Christianity or the version of it that thinks discrimination on the grounds of a persons sexuality is okay which is wrong. l m h jones

9:21pm Sun 7 Aug 11

Parly says...

The worry about being hauled into court for discriminating against someone because of their sex, race or religion didn’t used to be a problem but that doesnt mean those who didn’t want to employ black people or teach Christian kids all those years ago can still do so because “It wasn’t a problem when I first started”
.
Rules and regulations are chopped, changed and introduced all the time Kevin. They have to start somewhere and (quite rightly) apply to everyone, regardless of religious belief.
.
I’m sure this chap is immensely grateful that Jesus saved him and all that but if he needs daily visual prompts to remind him of this gratitude, he shouldn’t be driving.
The worry about being hauled into court for discriminating against someone because of their sex, race or religion didn’t used to be a problem but that doesnt mean those who didn’t want to employ black people or teach Christian kids all those years ago can still do so because “It wasn’t a problem when I first started” . Rules and regulations are chopped, changed and introduced all the time Kevin. They have to start somewhere and (quite rightly) apply to everyone, regardless of religious belief. . I’m sure this chap is immensely grateful that Jesus saved him and all that but if he needs daily visual prompts to remind him of this gratitude, he shouldn’t be driving. Parly

9:35pm Sun 7 Aug 11

Revkev says...

Hi Parly,
You write of the suspended delivery chap, Colin ...
xxxxx
"I’m sure this chap is immensely grateful that Jesus saved him and all that but if he needs daily visual prompts to remind him of this gratitude, he shouldn’t be driving."
xxxxx
Does this mean, Parly, that those who feel they want to wear wedding rings shouldn't be doing things either?
It's a similar thing.
Just a daily reminder of good things; of promises made; of a relationship.
Hi Parly, You write of the suspended delivery chap, Colin ... xxxxx "I’m sure this chap is immensely grateful that Jesus saved him and all that but if he needs daily visual prompts to remind him of this gratitude, he shouldn’t be driving." xxxxx Does this mean, Parly, that those who feel they want to wear wedding rings shouldn't be doing things either? It's a similar thing. Just a daily reminder of good things; of promises made; of a relationship. Revkev

11:44pm Sun 7 Aug 11

Cathan2 says...

Professionalism and quality work is first and foremost what employers want from employees.

Foster parents are paid to provide non-judgemental, accepting and flexible care to young people that might be atheists, drug-misusers, criminals, homosexuals, have disabilities, mental health problems, problem-parents etc.

Lots of workplaces have data/information confidentiality clauses and press officers.

Christian counsellors have been criticised for pushing their christian views and opinions onto vulnerable clients which is not in keeping with objective and professional expectations.

Our Chrisitan heritage includes witch-hunting, superstition, sectarianism, sexism, colluding with peadophiles and worse.
Professionalism and quality work is first and foremost what employers want from employees. Foster parents are paid to provide non-judgemental, accepting and flexible care to young people that might be atheists, drug-misusers, criminals, homosexuals, have disabilities, mental health problems, problem-parents etc. Lots of workplaces have data/information confidentiality clauses and press officers. Christian counsellors have been criticised for pushing their christian views and opinions onto vulnerable clients which is not in keeping with objective and professional expectations. Our Chrisitan heritage includes witch-hunting, superstition, sectarianism, sexism, colluding with peadophiles and worse. Cathan2

6:54am Mon 8 Aug 11

Graham Hartley says...

Though this country and its monarch support the Christian purpose, cases like Colin's exist. Perhaps there is something about these cases which is often unsaid; that these individuals are happy to attract and respond to attention. Quite like me now, writing this in the hope that others will read and respond.
Though this country and its monarch support the Christian purpose, cases like Colin's exist. Perhaps there is something about these cases which is often unsaid; that these individuals are happy to attract and respond to attention. Quite like me now, writing this in the hope that others will read and respond. Graham Hartley

8:45am Mon 8 Aug 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

Once again we see the message of fear based upon misinformation and deception. Once again we see the extremist agenda of intolerance, prejudice and discrimination given the veneer of religious beliefs. Once again we see that those who claim they are being discriminated against are using bully-boy techniques to further their own bullying and justify and spread their own intolerance. Once again we see the supposed victims using the language of oppression and fighting for themselves rather than being true Christians and fighting for others. It is a disservice to those who face real discrimination and death and torture for their beliefs.

In his own van Mr Atkinson is free to do as he pleases. In the company van – an official company vehicle - he has to follow company rules. That is nothing to do with discrimination. It is to do with the company image. The suggestion that he was being picked on for his Christian beliefs is complete nonsense. Nobody cares about his personal beliefs. The company policy was that no personal items are on display in their vans. This is eminently sensible and completely familiar and normal for anybody in a (nonreligious) job. Mr A resorting to lawyers and extremism is complete overreaction.

On foster parents. Mr and Mrs Johns (Pentecosts) of Derby were refused permission to adopt. Quite correctly. They put their prejudices before the welfare of the children in their care. They quite clearly flouted the law by saying that they would engage in discrimination. They were not willing to engage fairly with everyone in the delivery of a public service.

On marriage registrar. The case I remember was in Islington. The registrar who refused to give a civil ceremony to a gay couple. She deserved to be fired for gross misconduct and arguably prosecuted. She was being a homophobic bigot and acting directly contrary to equality legislation. She refused to do her job on the grounds of her prejudices. If I refused to deal with anybody on the grounds of age, race, sexuality, religion of whatever I would be fired. And rightly so.


The reality is directly opposite to the Rev’s article. The reality is that the extremists who are claiming persecution are the ones doing the persecuting. The reality is that the extremists are deliberately trying to flout their employers rules and regulations (set in the full knowledge of employment law and equality legislation) and also to flout the law.

The reality is that the extremists (see Rev K) are dressing up their bigotry, intolerance and discrimination and homophobia as “religious beliefs”. They are a disgrace to Christianity…

There is however a deep, shameful irony in all this. Those who claim to be the victims are actually the perpetrators…
Once again we see the message of fear based upon misinformation and deception. Once again we see the extremist agenda of intolerance, prejudice and discrimination given the veneer of religious beliefs. Once again we see that those who claim they are being discriminated against are using bully-boy techniques to further their own bullying and justify and spread their own intolerance. Once again we see the supposed victims using the language of oppression and fighting for themselves rather than being true Christians and fighting for others. It is a disservice to those who face real discrimination and death and torture for their beliefs. In his own van Mr Atkinson is free to do as he pleases. In the company van – an official company vehicle - he has to follow company rules. That is nothing to do with discrimination. It is to do with the company image. The suggestion that he was being picked on for his Christian beliefs is complete nonsense. Nobody cares about his personal beliefs. The company policy was that no personal items are on display in their vans. This is eminently sensible and completely familiar and normal for anybody in a (nonreligious) job. Mr A resorting to lawyers and extremism is complete overreaction. On foster parents. Mr and Mrs Johns (Pentecosts) of Derby were refused permission to adopt. Quite correctly. They put their prejudices before the welfare of the children in their care. They quite clearly flouted the law by saying that they would engage in discrimination. They were not willing to engage fairly with everyone in the delivery of a public service. On marriage registrar. The case I remember was in Islington. The registrar who refused to give a civil ceremony to a gay couple. She deserved to be fired for gross misconduct and arguably prosecuted. She was being a homophobic bigot and acting directly contrary to equality legislation. She refused to do her job on the grounds of her prejudices. If I refused to deal with anybody on the grounds of age, race, sexuality, religion of whatever I would be fired. And rightly so. The reality is directly opposite to the Rev’s article. The reality is that the extremists who are claiming persecution are the ones doing the persecuting. The reality is that the extremists are deliberately trying to flout their employers rules and regulations (set in the full knowledge of employment law and equality legislation) and also to flout the law. The reality is that the extremists (see Rev K) are dressing up their bigotry, intolerance and discrimination and homophobia as “religious beliefs”. They are a disgrace to Christianity… There is however a deep, shameful irony in all this. Those who claim to be the victims are actually the perpetrators… Joseph Yossarian

9:01am Mon 8 Aug 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

Revkev wrote:
Hi Parly, You write of the suspended delivery chap, Colin ... xxxxx "I’m sure this chap is immensely grateful that Jesus saved him and all that but if he needs daily visual prompts to remind him of this gratitude, he shouldn’t be driving." xxxxx Does this mean, Parly, that those who feel they want to wear wedding rings shouldn't be doing things either? It's a similar thing. Just a daily reminder of good things; of promises made; of a relationship.
Does this mean, Parly, that those who feel they want to wear wedding rings shouldn't be doing things either?XXXXX

THat is one of the most stupid things you have ever written. It is both irrelevant and stupid.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: Hi Parly, You write of the suspended delivery chap, Colin ... xxxxx "I’m sure this chap is immensely grateful that Jesus saved him and all that but if he needs daily visual prompts to remind him of this gratitude, he shouldn’t be driving." xxxxx Does this mean, Parly, that those who feel they want to wear wedding rings shouldn't be doing things either? It's a similar thing. Just a daily reminder of good things; of promises made; of a relationship.[/p][/quote]Does this mean, Parly, that those who feel they want to wear wedding rings shouldn't be doing things either?XXXXX THat is one of the most stupid things you have ever written. It is both irrelevant and stupid. Joseph Yossarian

9:09am Mon 8 Aug 11

Carlost says...

Eee-eck Kevin, you don't half get yourself into a pickle. I've heard that there are plans for a new colleseum at the Olympic park and the breeding of lions is well underway in time for next year. Keep praying for it seems that your days might be numbered.
Eee-eck Kevin, you don't half get yourself into a pickle. I've heard that there are plans for a new colleseum at the Olympic park and the breeding of lions is well underway in time for next year. Keep praying for it seems that your days might be numbered. Carlost

9:09am Mon 8 Aug 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

Rev says""When a Christian cannot freely work in the public arena and remain loyal to her/his beliefs, then that seems worthy of note.
And I don't see anything dishonest in that, as you suggest.
Merely an honest comment on how modern society is changing.""

Rubbish. You are deliberately misinforming and deceiving. You can remain firm to your beliefs as much as you want. Those of all religions are as free as each other to work in the public arena. In the public arena you deal with the public - not just those that you want to deal with. In other words, discrimination against an individual is wrong.
If you choose to break the law then you deserve the force of the law.
Rev says""When a Christian cannot freely work in the public arena and remain loyal to her/his beliefs, then that seems worthy of note. And I don't see anything dishonest in that, as you suggest. Merely an honest comment on how modern society is changing."" Rubbish. You are deliberately misinforming and deceiving. You can remain firm to your beliefs as much as you want. Those of all religions are as free as each other to work in the public arena. In the public arena you deal with the public - not just those that you want to deal with. In other words, discrimination against an individual is wrong. If you choose to break the law then you deserve the force of the law. Joseph Yossarian

9:14am Mon 8 Aug 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

Rev Says ""As you know, it's called freedom, and I think I'll exercise it until modern liberal society bans that too.""

Oh, my word....

Your hypocritical behaviour really does know no boundaries. You use your freedom to try to restrict the freedoms of others. You use your freedom to preach division and discrimination. You preach against modern, liberal society but you try to use it to full advantage.
10/10 for hypocritical language, with an added A* for accidentaly irony.
Rev Says ""As you know, it's called freedom, and I think I'll exercise it until modern liberal society bans that too."" Oh, my word.... Your hypocritical behaviour really does know no boundaries. You use your freedom to try to restrict the freedoms of others. You use your freedom to preach division and discrimination. You preach against modern, liberal society but you try to use it to full advantage. 10/10 for hypocritical language, with an added A* for accidentaly irony. Joseph Yossarian

11:05am Mon 8 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Tokens have nothing to do with Freedom. They may remind us of something, but these objects and graven images we venerate are usually a symbol of our bondage, and a token of our captivity not a symbol of our Freedom. Our Joy is a symbol of Freedom. Our Peace is another, Our Feelings are our symbols of Freedom not our concepts of who is free and who isn't Kevin.


The Human Soul cries out every day to be Free. From within each one of us The Soul calls and knocks and calls again and again and again, every single day you are Human the Soul cries out to feel all The Great Feelings of Freedom.
Tokens have nothing to do with Freedom. They may remind us of something, but these objects and graven images we venerate are usually a symbol of our bondage, and a token of our captivity not a symbol of our Freedom. Our Joy is a symbol of Freedom. Our Peace is another, Our Feelings are our symbols of Freedom not our concepts of who is free and who isn't Kevin. The Human Soul cries out every day to be Free. From within each one of us The Soul calls and knocks and calls again and again and again, every single day you are Human the Soul cries out to feel all The Great Feelings of Freedom. Ken Shuffles

11:11am Mon 8 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

.......We need to feel free, We need to feel the freedom. Advertising is not always welcomed. Some people find suffering offensive.
.......We need to feel free, We need to feel the freedom. Advertising is not always welcomed. Some people find suffering offensive. Ken Shuffles

11:16am Mon 8 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Your private Christian Heritage has mixed up suffering with kindness for way too long. Jesus came with a way to divorce suffering from the kindness not mingle them up.
Your private Christian Heritage has mixed up suffering with kindness for way too long. Jesus came with a way to divorce suffering from the kindness not mingle them up. Ken Shuffles

11:20am Mon 8 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Freedom looks better on Humans than religion does.
Freedom looks better on Humans than religion does. Ken Shuffles

2:29pm Mon 8 Aug 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

""One suspects parts of England are somewhat embarrassed by its Christian heritage. ""

When idiots think that they are being persecuted when cleary they are just being deliberately difficult, then yes, it is potentially embarrassing.

When bigots use christianity to stop women being promoted, to stop loving people from recognising each others love, to protest against shopping on sunday, to deny scientific fact, to spread intolerance, discord, division and discrimination, to act like only some and not all of the laws of the land apply to them - then yes, it is potentially embarrasing.

Christian heritage includes burning at the stake, pogroms against jews, blaspheny laws, homophobia, fear of witches and countless other evils.


The prejudices may have changed with time, but they are still religious prejudices.
""One suspects parts of England are somewhat embarrassed by its Christian heritage. "" When idiots think that they are being persecuted when cleary they are just being deliberately difficult, then yes, it is potentially embarrassing. When bigots use christianity to stop women being promoted, to stop loving people from recognising each others love, to protest against shopping on sunday, to deny scientific fact, to spread intolerance, discord, division and discrimination, to act like only some and not all of the laws of the land apply to them - then yes, it is potentially embarrasing. Christian heritage includes burning at the stake, pogroms against jews, blaspheny laws, homophobia, fear of witches and countless other evils. The prejudices may have changed with time, but they are still religious prejudices. Joseph Yossarian

8:35am Tue 9 Aug 11

Nostradamous says...

My thoughts on this would be in agreement with the majority of what Parly has written,no need to make a spectacle of ones self we all have to obey rules.
But once again i have to go straight back to bible teachings,were on earth in the bible does it say that to prove you are a christian you have to walk around waving an immitation Palm cross,i see once again we are back to the druids and pagonism,it is very highly debatable that Jesus did actually die for us all on a cross anyhow,it was more than likely to be a striaght stake as was the practice in those days, but that is for another discussion i would think,and as we all know if that was proved to be true it would blow everything out of the water,never mind white van man.
My thoughts on this would be in agreement with the majority of what Parly has written,no need to make a spectacle of ones self we all have to obey rules. But once again i have to go straight back to bible teachings,were on earth in the bible does it say that to prove you are a christian you have to walk around waving an immitation Palm cross,i see once again we are back to the druids and pagonism,it is very highly debatable that Jesus did actually die for us all on a cross anyhow,it was more than likely to be a striaght stake as was the practice in those days, but that is for another discussion i would think,and as we all know if that was proved to be true it would blow everything out of the water,never mind white van man. Nostradamous

12:33pm Tue 9 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Jesus and/or God was murdered for us.?


Who is Christianity trying to fool.....
Jesus and/or God was murdered for us.? Who is Christianity trying to fool..... Ken Shuffles

5:07pm Tue 9 Aug 11

Nostradamous says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
Jesus and/or God was murdered for us.? Who is Christianity trying to fool.....
No one Ken,because Jesus wasnt murdered mate,Jesus willingly gave his EARTHLY life for us all to find our everlasting life,notice i have highlighted earthly life,which means he cannot return in human form when he does return to the vicinity of the earth to rule over the earth for a 1000 years,if you believe that Jesus will walk on this earth again then he died on calvary for nothing,it will have proved nothing at all to Saton and you do not understand the story of the bible and Gods purpose for us all.
you simply believe what you have been told with no real scriptural back up.
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Jesus and/or God was murdered for us.? Who is Christianity trying to fool.....[/p][/quote]No one Ken,because Jesus wasnt murdered mate,Jesus willingly gave his EARTHLY life for us all to find our everlasting life,notice i have highlighted earthly life,which means he cannot return in human form when he does return to the vicinity of the earth to rule over the earth for a 1000 years,if you believe that Jesus will walk on this earth again then he died on calvary for nothing,it will have proved nothing at all to Saton and you do not understand the story of the bible and Gods purpose for us all. you simply believe what you have been told with no real scriptural back up. Nostradamous

11:17am Wed 10 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Nosty,


If the Truth is The Truth, it is SELF-EVIDENT and as it was, as it is, and as it always be forever and forever The Truth then the ABSOLUTE Truth must have been knowable, understandable, discoverable and revealable even before the first man could read or write alphabetically. If the Truth is indeed the Truth it does not require any scripural back-up or any other back-up.


.


FACT. -Jesus Christ was m*urdered by the Romans for never hurting anyone. It was M*urder by the State, which as always had to be promoted as something it wasn't really.


.


People call themselves Christians. Jesus had Lovers who did not deceive themselves. Those who deceive themselves for a pension will deceive others for the sake of their pensions and their comfortable and convenient after death make-deceive.


.


The Truth Absolute, needs no back-up and so no back-up was ever created with reference to it.
Nosty, If the Truth is The Truth, it is SELF-EVIDENT and as it was, as it is, and as it always be forever and forever The Truth then the ABSOLUTE Truth must have been knowable, understandable, discoverable and revealable even before the first man could read or write alphabetically. If the Truth is indeed the Truth it does not require any scripural back-up or any other back-up. . FACT. -Jesus Christ was m*urdered by the Romans for never hurting anyone. It was M*urder by the State, which as always had to be promoted as something it wasn't really. . People call themselves Christians. Jesus had Lovers who did not deceive themselves. Those who deceive themselves for a pension will deceive others for the sake of their pensions and their comfortable and convenient after death make-deceive. . The Truth Absolute, needs no back-up and so no back-up was ever created with reference to it. Ken Shuffles

11:23am Wed 10 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

You can have Eternal Life without anyone else, including Jesus having to give up their Earthly Life for it mate.


.


Nobody has EVER suffered to receive Eternal Life. No suffering is required whatsoever by any Human.


Only according to the FALSE myths and sandpit tales of just about every Religion I can think of, bloody suffering and death is always ushered in to be part of it.
You can have Eternal Life without anyone else, including Jesus having to give up their Earthly Life for it mate. . Nobody has EVER suffered to receive Eternal Life. No suffering is required whatsoever by any Human. Only according to the FALSE myths and sandpit tales of just about every Religion I can think of, bloody suffering and death is always ushered in to be part of it. Ken Shuffles

11:32am Wed 10 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Nobody, not even one earthly person and NOT EVEN JESUS NEEDED TO DO THAT for anyone to have and receive Eternal Life.


Eternal Life does not depend on, and is not a consequence of any of our actions, or the actions of any one else. Whether they are actions engineered and brought about by our own thoughts and actions or the thoughts and actions of any other person, Eternal Life is not a consequence, and has never been, and never will be, a consequence of any earthly or physical form of action.
Nobody, not even one earthly person and NOT EVEN JESUS NEEDED TO DO THAT for anyone to have and receive Eternal Life. Eternal Life does not depend on, and is not a consequence of any of our actions, or the actions of any one else. Whether they are actions engineered and brought about by our own thoughts and actions or the thoughts and actions of any other person, Eternal Life is not a consequence, and has never been, and never will be, a consequence of any earthly or physical form of action. Ken Shuffles

11:38am Wed 10 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Your Eternal Life and Your relationship with Life is what is providing you with the ability of action. Action does not determine Life. Life determines action.
Your Eternal Life and Your relationship with Life is what is providing you with the ability of action. Action does not determine Life. Life determines action. Ken Shuffles

11:52am Wed 10 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

All our actions are perishable, and all of your actions are perishable. Even the actions of the devout and religious are perishable.


.


Except for this one piece of action which no one can ever be prepared for - Your very own motion of Life.
All our actions are perishable, and all of your actions are perishable. Even the actions of the devout and religious are perishable. . Except for this one piece of action which no one can ever be prepared for - Your very own motion of Life. Ken Shuffles

11:55am Wed 10 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Some actions are relevent and in relation to others, and one action is relevent and in relation only to your Self.


.


Do not disregard one, for a world full of others.
Some actions are relevent and in relation to others, and one action is relevent and in relation only to your Self. . Do not disregard one, for a world full of others. Ken Shuffles

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