They will have to answer for cruel actions

Whoops! That’ll teach me to answer back during an advert break in Coronation Street.

Now, I’m in hot water for tapping out an overly-hasty and much-too-brief reply on my laptop to one of my online critics following last week’s column. I’d been accused of peddling a religion of fear, and absent-mindedly replied that “Christianity is about love which casts out fear.”

Now, while this is true for those who love God (1 John 4:18), it isn’t for those who ignore him.

For those who insist on being their own mini-gods, the consequences still have to be faced.

For phone hackers and personal-document blaggers who abuse others, yes, they will have to answer for their cruel actions.

And their judge will not be of puny parliamentary or bewigged status but hail from an altogether more awesome rank.

For the greedy, corrupt crooks responsible for our growing economic woes, punishment should most certainly be feared.

For the murderer of (so far) five patients by injection insulin into saline drips, an Almighty Judge will one day have to be faced; One who doesn’t take kindly to the unlawful taking life which he created.

Fear sits alongside those who live by their own fleshly desires (Galatians 5:19-21), for they shall not inherit all the rich abundance that God has on offer.

They will lose out big time.

Only with the inner acceptance of God’s Spirit comes a peaceful love that sends fear crashing out of sight (Galatians 5:22-25).

Receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Such will inherit the Kingdom of God.

Comments (68)

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6:56am Sun 24 Jul 11

Excluded again says...

Interesting blog, given its date and time - 12.20pm on Saturday 23 July.

A terrorist who openly describes his motivation as being a Christian murders 84 people in Norway. This news broke and the identity and beliefs of the terrorist were known several hours before Rev Logan had wirtten this piece.

I am not suggesting for one second that Rev Logan has even the remotest connection or sympathy for the views of Anders Breivik. I'm absolutely and completely certain that Rev Logan is as sickened by these crimes as the rest of us. Not all Christians think the same.

But the crimes were carried out in the name of his religion. But he felt no need to address this, to condemn the action as a Christian and to explain why in his view Christianity is a religion of peace not hatred.

It is an interested contrast to what is expected of Muslim clerics when Islamic terrorists carry out mass murders.
Interesting blog, given its date and time - 12.20pm on Saturday 23 July. A terrorist who openly describes his motivation as being a Christian murders 84 people in Norway. This news broke and the identity and beliefs of the terrorist were known several hours before Rev Logan had wirtten this piece. I am not suggesting for one second that Rev Logan has even the remotest connection or sympathy for the views of Anders Breivik. I'm absolutely and completely certain that Rev Logan is as sickened by these crimes as the rest of us. Not all Christians think the same. But the crimes were carried out in the name of his religion. But he felt no need to address this, to condemn the action as a Christian and to explain why in his view Christianity is a religion of peace not hatred. It is an interested contrast to what is expected of Muslim clerics when Islamic terrorists carry out mass murders. Excluded again

7:48am Sun 24 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

But the crimes were carried out in the name of his religion. But he felt no need to address this, to condemn the action as a Christian and to explain why in his view Christianity is a religion of peace not hatred.

--------------------
---------
I am a christian and as anyone who regularly use this column will know is that i have strong views on mybeliefs as well.
An i will openly condemn this frenzied attack on these poor inocent people.

But a little early with your outburst against Kevin and his beliefs i would say,wouldnt YOU?,i am sure Kevin will openly condem every aspect of this action,and that is what Muslims or there clerics NEVER do.
I think we should awaite further developments before we start to have knee jerk reactions like you seem to have done.
But the crimes were carried out in the name of his religion. But he felt no need to address this, to condemn the action as a Christian and to explain why in his view Christianity is a religion of peace not hatred. -------------------- --------- I am a christian and as anyone who regularly use this column will know is that i have strong views on mybeliefs as well. An i will openly condemn this frenzied attack on these poor inocent people. But a little early with your outburst against Kevin and his beliefs i would say,wouldnt YOU?,i am sure Kevin will openly condem every aspect of this action,and that is what Muslims or there clerics NEVER do. I think we should awaite further developments before we start to have knee jerk reactions like you seem to have done. Nostradamous

10:40am Sun 24 Jul 11

Excluded again says...

Not an outburst against Kevin. He has done nothing wrong.

It just never occured to him that he should have to answer for the evil actions of someone he had never heard of, even though that person claimed to act in the name of the same religion.

The point is that Muslims and their clerics are expected to make denunciations of evil actions of someone they have never heard of. And what is more they do so.

Pointing out some double standards - none of which are Rev Logan's fault.
Not an outburst against Kevin. He has done nothing wrong. It just never occured to him that he should have to answer for the evil actions of someone he had never heard of, even though that person claimed to act in the name of the same religion. The point is that Muslims and their clerics are expected to make denunciations of evil actions of someone they have never heard of. And what is more they do so. Pointing out some double standards - none of which are Rev Logan's fault. Excluded again

11:03am Sun 24 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

The point is that Muslims and their clerics are expected to make denunciations
--------------------
--------
Not in my thinking they are not expected to at all,it is just a simple form of unity to fellow human beingsthat all though we do not share the samefaith/belief wedo not condone the killing of anyone,i have yet to hear words of sympathy or indeed anger for any muslim/islamic bombing or shooting/be heading or what ever,from any one in the Islamic faith,they just do not do it..
But what i am surpriesd about is that i have not heard the word terrorist mentioned yet,that for sure is double standard,but you must remember this is in the main a Christian country as yet,quite possibly the papers in say Pakistan would quote on this very differently.
The point is that Muslims and their clerics are expected to make denunciations -------------------- -------- Not in my thinking they are not expected to at all,it is just a simple form of unity to fellow human beingsthat all though we do not share the samefaith/belief wedo not condone the killing of anyone,i have yet to hear words of sympathy or indeed anger for any muslim/islamic bombing or shooting/be heading or what ever,from any one in the Islamic faith,they just do not do it.. But what i am surpriesd about is that i have not heard the word terrorist mentioned yet,that for sure is double standard,but you must remember this is in the main a Christian country as yet,quite possibly the papers in say Pakistan would quote on this very differently. Nostradamous

12:47pm Sun 24 Jul 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."

What egotistical pomposity!
Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." What egotistical pomposity! Joseph Yossarian

3:04pm Sun 24 Jul 11

Excluded again says...

Nostradamus, you really need to get out more.

I can't be bothered going through dozens and dozens of condemnations of terrorist acts by Muslim organisations in Britain. A brief use of google will help you,

But, for starters, the is what the Lancashire Council of Mosques said of the London bombings on 7/7:-

We 'utterly condemn without reservation this act of terror. We hope the Prime Minister will take steps to ensure that those responsible are brought swiftly to justice.'

Not much ambiguity there, methinks. But you clearly missed it.
Nostradamus, you really need to get out more. I can't be bothered going through dozens and dozens of condemnations of terrorist acts by Muslim organisations in Britain. A brief use of google will help you, But, for starters, the is what the Lancashire Council of Mosques said of the London bombings on 7/7:- We 'utterly condemn without reservation this act of terror. We hope the Prime Minister will take steps to ensure that those responsible are brought swiftly to justice.' Not much ambiguity there, methinks. But you clearly missed it. Excluded again

4:22pm Sun 24 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

Nostradamus, you really need to get out more,,
-------------------
Well on the contrary i need to stay in more and perhaps watch more TV,as althouh i take your word that these people did in fact make those statements,but sorry i have never ever seen a denunciation on the TV news or anywhere for that matter,i thank you for bringing those statements to my attention,but i would like to see them read out on the News or some other platform in future,you know make it very clear to all and sundry that you do not condone those uncivilised actions.
Nostradamus, you really need to get out more,, ------------------- Well on the contrary i need to stay in more and perhaps watch more TV,as althouh i take your word that these people did in fact make those statements,but sorry i have never ever seen a denunciation on the TV news or anywhere for that matter,i thank you for bringing those statements to my attention,but i would like to see them read out on the News or some other platform in future,you know make it very clear to all and sundry that you do not condone those uncivilised actions. Nostradamous

10:49pm Sun 24 Jul 11

Revkev says...

Excluded again wrote:
Interesting blog, given its date and time - 12.20pm on Saturday 23 July.

A terrorist who openly describes his motivation as being a Christian murders 84 people in Norway. This news broke and the identity and beliefs of the terrorist were known several hours before Rev Logan had wirtten this piece.

I am not suggesting for one second that Rev Logan has even the remotest connection or sympathy for the views of Anders Breivik. I'm absolutely and completely certain that Rev Logan is as sickened by these crimes as the rest of us. Not all Christians think the same.

But the crimes were carried out in the name of his religion. But he felt no need to address this, to condemn the action as a Christian and to explain why in his view Christianity is a religion of peace not hatred.

It is an interested contrast to what is expected of Muslim clerics when Islamic terrorists carry out mass murders.
Hi Excluded again,
I write my column on Thursdays and submit it first thing on Friday morning to hit my deadline.
The sad and tragic killings didn't begun until several hours after my deadline.
[quote][p][bold]Excluded again[/bold] wrote: Interesting blog, given its date and time - 12.20pm on Saturday 23 July. A terrorist who openly describes his motivation as being a Christian murders 84 people in Norway. This news broke and the identity and beliefs of the terrorist were known several hours before Rev Logan had wirtten this piece. I am not suggesting for one second that Rev Logan has even the remotest connection or sympathy for the views of Anders Breivik. I'm absolutely and completely certain that Rev Logan is as sickened by these crimes as the rest of us. Not all Christians think the same. But the crimes were carried out in the name of his religion. But he felt no need to address this, to condemn the action as a Christian and to explain why in his view Christianity is a religion of peace not hatred. It is an interested contrast to what is expected of Muslim clerics when Islamic terrorists carry out mass murders.[/p][/quote]Hi Excluded again, I write my column on Thursdays and submit it first thing on Friday morning to hit my deadline. The sad and tragic killings didn't begun until several hours after my deadline. Revkev

10:58pm Sun 24 Jul 11

Revkev says...

Joseph Yossarian wrote:
Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."

What egotistical pomposity!
Hi Joe,
God loves to give his children lots of good things.
He'd love to give them to you too.
[quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." What egotistical pomposity![/p][/quote]Hi Joe, God loves to give his children lots of good things. He'd love to give them to you too. Revkev

8:20am Mon 25 Jul 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

Revkev wrote:
Joseph Yossarian wrote: Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." What egotistical pomposity!
Hi Joe, God loves to give his children lots of good things. He'd love to give them to you too.
Do you really think that you need to believe in your brand of religion to be kind? to be good? To be gentle and show self control?

That is what you appear to be saying.

Do you think that without your religion you would somehow become a bad person? If that's the case, then you are a bad person anyway. Religion is merely your cover story.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." What egotistical pomposity![/p][/quote]Hi Joe, God loves to give his children lots of good things. He'd love to give them to you too.[/p][/quote]Do you really think that you need to believe in your brand of religion to be kind? to be good? To be gentle and show self control? That is what you appear to be saying. Do you think that without your religion you would somehow become a bad person? If that's the case, then you are a bad person anyway. Religion is merely your cover story. Joseph Yossarian

8:43am Mon 25 Jul 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

So what are the consequences?
What is the punishment is to be feared?
They will lose out big time? How?
Only last week you said
""Joe, fight on against this religion of fear.""
But there you go, banging on about fear, punishment, higher authority…..


Ps I have to respond to higher authority is the standard excuse of religious people who have been caught breaking the law. It’s pathetic.

You don't need religion to be a good person.
So what are the consequences? What is the punishment is to be feared? They will lose out big time? How? Only last week you said ""Joe, fight on against this religion of fear."" But there you go, banging on about fear, punishment, higher authority….. Ps I have to respond to higher authority is the standard excuse of religious people who have been caught breaking the law. It’s pathetic. You don't need religion to be a good person. Joseph Yossarian

11:54am Mon 25 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Exactly Joe,

Someone can be a very bad person and still claim to be a Christian, as the massacre of the week proclaims in organ tones.

You don't have to be a Christian to be good or bad. Religion has not got the monopoly on good and bad.
Exactly Joe, Someone can be a very bad person and still claim to be a Christian, as the massacre of the week proclaims in organ tones. You don't have to be a Christian to be good or bad. Religion has not got the monopoly on good and bad. Ken Shuffles

11:58am Mon 25 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Religion just makes the bad appear to be more good.
Religion just makes the bad appear to be more good. Ken Shuffles

12:28pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

Of course Ken and Joe in my oppinion you are both so right,humans do have an inherent feeling of good and bad,you dont have to be spiritually motivated to have the hold on all things good,no way,also on the other hand as has been shown many times even people who claim to be spiritual(religous) can indeed be very bad,it is how you develope,how you have been taught and to what extent you have been touched by God,please consider this,when Jesus was giving his sermon on the mount,quite a crowd had gathered to listen,this crowd for some unknown reason was called to listen,they droped all they were doing and went to learn,but no doubt countless other people in the near vicinity just carried on with there daily chores,why this situation is that some people believe and others dont i just do not know,i now see the failings in recognised Christian religion and why so many have lost faith in such a belief,and maybe that is why such mis understandings have occured.
Of course Ken and Joe in my oppinion you are both so right,humans do have an inherent feeling of good and bad,you dont have to be spiritually motivated to have the hold on all things good,no way,also on the other hand as has been shown many times even people who claim to be spiritual(religous) can indeed be very bad,it is how you develope,how you have been taught and to what extent you have been touched by God,please consider this,when Jesus was giving his sermon on the mount,quite a crowd had gathered to listen,this crowd for some unknown reason was called to listen,they droped all they were doing and went to learn,but no doubt countless other people in the near vicinity just carried on with there daily chores,why this situation is that some people believe and others dont i just do not know,i now see the failings in recognised Christian religion and why so many have lost faith in such a belief,and maybe that is why such mis understandings have occured. Nostradamous

12:33pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Excluded again says...

Revkev wrote:
Excluded again wrote:
Interesting blog, given its date and time - 12.20pm on Saturday 23 July.

A terrorist who openly describes his motivation as being a Christian murders 84 people in Norway. This news broke and the identity and beliefs of the terrorist were known several hours before Rev Logan had wirtten this piece.

I am not suggesting for one second that Rev Logan has even the remotest connection or sympathy for the views of Anders Breivik. I'm absolutely and completely certain that Rev Logan is as sickened by these crimes as the rest of us. Not all Christians think the same.

But the crimes were carried out in the name of his religion. But he felt no need to address this, to condemn the action as a Christian and to explain why in his view Christianity is a religion of peace not hatred.

It is an interested contrast to what is expected of Muslim clerics when Islamic terrorists carry out mass murders.
Hi Excluded again,
I write my column on Thursdays and submit it first thing on Friday morning to hit my deadline.
The sad and tragic killings didn't begun until several hours after my deadline.
Fair enough, Rev Logan.

This was far from clear from the piece which gave a date and time well after we knew who carried out the terrorist attacks on Friday.

Might make a suitable subject for this weeks blog?
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Excluded again[/bold] wrote: Interesting blog, given its date and time - 12.20pm on Saturday 23 July. A terrorist who openly describes his motivation as being a Christian murders 84 people in Norway. This news broke and the identity and beliefs of the terrorist were known several hours before Rev Logan had wirtten this piece. I am not suggesting for one second that Rev Logan has even the remotest connection or sympathy for the views of Anders Breivik. I'm absolutely and completely certain that Rev Logan is as sickened by these crimes as the rest of us. Not all Christians think the same. But the crimes were carried out in the name of his religion. But he felt no need to address this, to condemn the action as a Christian and to explain why in his view Christianity is a religion of peace not hatred. It is an interested contrast to what is expected of Muslim clerics when Islamic terrorists carry out mass murders.[/p][/quote]Hi Excluded again, I write my column on Thursdays and submit it first thing on Friday morning to hit my deadline. The sad and tragic killings didn't begun until several hours after my deadline.[/p][/quote]Fair enough, Rev Logan. This was far from clear from the piece which gave a date and time well after we knew who carried out the terrorist attacks on Friday. Might make a suitable subject for this weeks blog? Excluded again

2:08pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Graham Hartley says...

Kevin writes - "For the murderer of (so far) five patients by injection insulin into saline drips, an Almighty Judge will one day have to be faced; One who doesn’t take kindly to the unlawful taking life which he created."
.
2 Kings 2:23-25 describes the mauling of forty-two children by bears after the prophet Elisha had cursed them (the children) for teasing him about his baldness. So here the taking of the children's lives was lawful? Or awful?
Kevin writes - "For the murderer of (so far) five patients by injection insulin into saline drips, an Almighty Judge will one day have to be faced; One who doesn’t take kindly to the unlawful taking life which he created." . 2 Kings 2:23-25 describes the mauling of forty-two children by bears after the prophet Elisha had cursed them (the children) for teasing him about his baldness. So here the taking of the children's lives was lawful? Or awful? Graham Hartley

3:33pm Mon 25 Jul 11

manyarecalled says...

is this guy a Nazi , or is he a Christian ?
I thought the two were diametrically opposed .Hitler killed plenty of Christians.
is this guy a Nazi , or is he a Christian ? I thought the two were diametrically opposed .Hitler killed plenty of Christians. manyarecalled

3:45pm Mon 25 Jul 11

l m h jones says...

Nostradamous wrote:
The point is that Muslims and their clerics are expected to make denunciations
--------------------

--------
Not in my thinking they are not expected to at all,it is just a simple form of unity to fellow human beingsthat all though we do not share the samefaith/belief wedo not condone the killing of anyone,i have yet to hear words of sympathy or indeed anger for any muslim/islamic bombing or shooting/be heading or what ever,from any one in the Islamic faith,they just do not do it..
But what i am surpriesd about is that i have not heard the word terrorist mentioned yet,that for sure is double standard,but you must remember this is in the main a Christian country as yet,quite possibly the papers in say Pakistan would quote on this very differently.
,i have yet to hear words of sympathy or indeed anger for any muslim/islamic bombing or shooting/be heading or what ever,from any one in the Islamic faith,they just do not do it..they do in this house mate prehaps you should meet more muslims
[quote][p][bold]Nostradamous[/bold] wrote: The point is that Muslims and their clerics are expected to make denunciations -------------------- -------- Not in my thinking they are not expected to at all,it is just a simple form of unity to fellow human beingsthat all though we do not share the samefaith/belief wedo not condone the killing of anyone,i have yet to hear words of sympathy or indeed anger for any muslim/islamic bombing or shooting/be heading or what ever,from any one in the Islamic faith,they just do not do it.. But what i am surpriesd about is that i have not heard the word terrorist mentioned yet,that for sure is double standard,but you must remember this is in the main a Christian country as yet,quite possibly the papers in say Pakistan would quote on this very differently.[/p][/quote],i have yet to hear words of sympathy or indeed anger for any muslim/islamic bombing or shooting/be heading or what ever,from any one in the Islamic faith,they just do not do it..they do in this house mate prehaps you should meet more muslims l m h jones

4:01pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Carlost says...

Glug! Glug! Glug! Help, where , what who, which, where am I! Drowning in a sea of irrational nonsense. There is no hope! Where is that door to heaven?
Glug! Glug! Glug! Help, where , what who, which, where am I! Drowning in a sea of irrational nonsense. There is no hope! Where is that door to heaven? Carlost

4:53pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

Graham Hartley wrote:
Kevin writes - "For the murderer of (so far) five patients by injection insulin into saline drips, an Almighty Judge will one day have to be faced; One who doesn’t take kindly to the unlawful taking life which he created." . 2 Kings 2:23-25 describes the mauling of forty-two children by bears after the prophet Elisha had cursed them (the children) for teasing him about his baldness. So here the taking of the children's lives was lawful? Or awful?
Source Google.
--------------------
---------
Idolatry was rampant in Israel during the days of the prophet Elisha, and paganism influenced young and old alike. On one occasion the great prophet was traveling from Jericho towards Bethel when some “little children” (KJV), or “young lads” (ASV), accosted him and cried: “Go up, you baldhead. Go up, you baldhead,” whereupon Elisha cursed them in the name of God, and called two bears out of the forest that mauled the youths (2 Kings 2:23-25).

Some have cited this as a case of obvious child abuse and an example of conduct that would be unworthy of a prophet of Jehovah. Several alleged problems require our attention.

First, the rendition “little children” is unfortunate. The Hebrew word is naar, a generic term which can encompass anyone from an infant to a mature man – the context being the deciding factor. Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29).

Contextual evidence in 2 Kings 2 indicates that the youths harassing Elisha were spiritually mature. For instance, they “mocked” the prophet; the term is not employed of innocent, childish conduct (cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16).

The admonition, “Go up … go up,” likely reveals the wish that he would ascend (like Elijah did), i.e., it reflected their desire to be rid of him. The reference to baldness may be a curse-wish of these rebels (cf. Isaiah 3:17a,24). Clearly, these young men were not sympathetic with the mission of God’s prophet.

Second, the term “curse” is a pronouncement of divine judgment upon these spiritual misfits (cf. Genesis 9:25; 49:7; Deuteronomy 27:15ff; Joshua 6:26).

Third, the tragedy that befell these young men was obviously by divine design since Elisha would have possessed no personal power to call bears from the woods to do his bidding. But the sovereignty of God over the animal world is alluded to frequently in the Scriptures (see Numbers 21:6).

Thus, in connection with the key problem words in this context, make appropriate notations from the preceding comments, such as: Underline “children,” and note that the original term can mean a mature man.
[quote][p][bold]Graham Hartley[/bold] wrote: Kevin writes - "For the murderer of (so far) five patients by injection insulin into saline drips, an Almighty Judge will one day have to be faced; One who doesn’t take kindly to the unlawful taking life which he created." . 2 Kings 2:23-25 describes the mauling of forty-two children by bears after the prophet Elisha had cursed them (the children) for teasing him about his baldness. So here the taking of the children's lives was lawful? Or awful?[/p][/quote]Source Google. -------------------- --------- Idolatry was rampant in Israel during the days of the prophet Elisha, and paganism influenced young and old alike. On one occasion the great prophet was traveling from Jericho towards Bethel when some “little children” (KJV), or “young lads” (ASV), accosted him and cried: “Go up, you baldhead. Go up, you baldhead,” whereupon Elisha cursed them in the name of God, and called two bears out of the forest that mauled the youths (2 Kings 2:23-25). Some have cited this as a case of obvious child abuse and an example of conduct that would be unworthy of a prophet of Jehovah. Several alleged problems require our attention. First, the rendition “little children” is unfortunate. The Hebrew word is naar, a generic term which can encompass anyone from an infant to a mature man – the context being the deciding factor. Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29). Contextual evidence in 2 Kings 2 indicates that the youths harassing Elisha were spiritually mature. For instance, they “mocked” the prophet; the term is not employed of innocent, childish conduct (cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16). The admonition, “Go up … go up,” likely reveals the wish that he would ascend (like Elijah did), i.e., it reflected their desire to be rid of him. The reference to baldness may be a curse-wish of these rebels (cf. Isaiah 3:17a,24). Clearly, these young men were not sympathetic with the mission of God’s prophet. Second, the term “curse” is a pronouncement of divine judgment upon these spiritual misfits (cf. Genesis 9:25; 49:7; Deuteronomy 27:15ff; Joshua 6:26). Third, the tragedy that befell these young men was obviously by divine design since Elisha would have possessed no personal power to call bears from the woods to do his bidding. But the sovereignty of God over the animal world is alluded to frequently in the Scriptures (see Numbers 21:6). Thus, in connection with the key problem words in this context, make appropriate notations from the preceding comments, such as: Underline “children,” and note that the original term can mean a mature man. Nostradamous

5:02pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

l m h jones wrote:
Nostradamous wrote: The point is that Muslims and their clerics are expected to make denunciations -------------------- -------- Not in my thinking they are not expected to at all,it is just a simple form of unity to fellow human beingsthat all though we do not share the samefaith/belief wedo not condone the killing of anyone,i have yet to hear words of sympathy or indeed anger for any muslim/islamic bombing or shooting/be heading or what ever,from any one in the Islamic faith,they just do not do it.. But what i am surpriesd about is that i have not heard the word terrorist mentioned yet,that for sure is double standard,but you must remember this is in the main a Christian country as yet,quite possibly the papers in say Pakistan would quote on this very differently.
,i have yet to hear words of sympathy or indeed anger for any muslim/islamic bombing or shooting/be heading or what ever,from any one in the Islamic faith,they just do not do it..they do in this house mate prehaps you should meet more muslims
HI Jonesey,it may surprise you but i do have many Muslim friends,i talk regularly with them as well and we have many interesting exchanges also,but i agree that in there homes and in conversations they do condem all wrong doings (killing Humans),but no one from the Muslim world stands up on TV and openly condems these acts against humanity.Sorry nut that is what i believe.
[quote][p][bold]l m h jones[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nostradamous[/bold] wrote: The point is that Muslims and their clerics are expected to make denunciations -------------------- -------- Not in my thinking they are not expected to at all,it is just a simple form of unity to fellow human beingsthat all though we do not share the samefaith/belief wedo not condone the killing of anyone,i have yet to hear words of sympathy or indeed anger for any muslim/islamic bombing or shooting/be heading or what ever,from any one in the Islamic faith,they just do not do it.. But what i am surpriesd about is that i have not heard the word terrorist mentioned yet,that for sure is double standard,but you must remember this is in the main a Christian country as yet,quite possibly the papers in say Pakistan would quote on this very differently.[/p][/quote],i have yet to hear words of sympathy or indeed anger for any muslim/islamic bombing or shooting/be heading or what ever,from any one in the Islamic faith,they just do not do it..they do in this house mate prehaps you should meet more muslims[/p][/quote]HI Jonesey,it may surprise you but i do have many Muslim friends,i talk regularly with them as well and we have many interesting exchanges also,but i agree that in there homes and in conversations they do condem all wrong doings (killing Humans),but no one from the Muslim world stands up on TV and openly condems these acts against humanity.Sorry nut that is what i believe. Nostradamous

5:11pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Revkev says...

Joseph Yossarian wrote:
Revkev wrote:
Joseph Yossarian wrote: Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." What egotistical pomposity!
Hi Joe, God loves to give his children lots of good things. He'd love to give them to you too.
Do you really think that you need to believe in your brand of religion to be kind? to be good? To be gentle and show self control?

That is what you appear to be saying.

Do you think that without your religion you would somehow become a bad person? If that's the case, then you are a bad person anyway. Religion is merely your cover story.
Hi Joe
All men and women are capable of good.
I believe we were created in God's image and as such have his grace - what is know as common grace.
xx
However, we fell from the perfection of that image when we decided to be our own gods.
But, as your experience tells you, we're still quite capable of doing good and being kind.
We can do this not because we evolved to be like this and found it beneficial to survival to behave in this way, but because God gave us his grace, and we still act in his image, albeit in a damaged way.
xx
What I was trying to point out in the column was that when we allow God to come back into our lives, His Spirit begins to mend the damaged parts so that we can be the humans he truly meant us to be.
This means we can know true joy, peace, love etc., rather than the paler version experienced by fallen humanity.
It's just another way of saying we each need to come back to our Maker to work according to his original design.
[quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." What egotistical pomposity![/p][/quote]Hi Joe, God loves to give his children lots of good things. He'd love to give them to you too.[/p][/quote]Do you really think that you need to believe in your brand of religion to be kind? to be good? To be gentle and show self control? That is what you appear to be saying. Do you think that without your religion you would somehow become a bad person? If that's the case, then you are a bad person anyway. Religion is merely your cover story.[/p][/quote]Hi Joe All men and women are capable of good. I believe we were created in God's image and as such have his grace - what is know as common grace. xx However, we fell from the perfection of that image when we decided to be our own gods. But, as your experience tells you, we're still quite capable of doing good and being kind. We can do this not because we evolved to be like this and found it beneficial to survival to behave in this way, but because God gave us his grace, and we still act in his image, albeit in a damaged way. xx What I was trying to point out in the column was that when we allow God to come back into our lives, His Spirit begins to mend the damaged parts so that we can be the humans he truly meant us to be. This means we can know true joy, peace, love etc., rather than the paler version experienced by fallen humanity. It's just another way of saying we each need to come back to our Maker to work according to his original design. Revkev

5:22pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Revkev says...

Joseph Yossarian wrote:
So what are the consequences?
What is the punishment is to be feared?
They will lose out big time? How?
Only last week you said
""Joe, fight on against this religion of fear.""
But there you go, banging on about fear, punishment, higher authority…..


Ps I have to respond to higher authority is the standard excuse of religious people who have been caught breaking the law. It’s pathetic.

You don't need religion to be a good person.
Hi Joe
There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there.
You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books.
xx
This type of religion is based on good works - trying to be good enough to get into heaven, or get accepted by God.
This could be called 'folk Christianity' as practised by many in English churches.
This is a religion of fear.
And this needs to be fought. That's why I encouraged you in your criticisms.
****
True Christianity is all about love which casts our fear (1 John 4:18).
God so loved us that he sent his Son, Jesus, to pay the penalty for our sins. He died in our place. He took our punishment.
As we come to him in repentance (we stop going our way and go His) he accepts us as his children.
He gives us his spirit to assure us that we are saved for eternity by him.
From now on, there only needs to be love between God and his children.
We have no fear of death, for the welcoming arms of our father are there to greet us.
We have no fear of anything, because if the Number One Person of the Universe is for us, who can possibly be against us.
Hope this helps.
[quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: So what are the consequences? What is the punishment is to be feared? They will lose out big time? How? Only last week you said ""Joe, fight on against this religion of fear."" But there you go, banging on about fear, punishment, higher authority….. Ps I have to respond to higher authority is the standard excuse of religious people who have been caught breaking the law. It’s pathetic. You don't need religion to be a good person.[/p][/quote]Hi Joe There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there. You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books. xx This type of religion is based on good works - trying to be good enough to get into heaven, or get accepted by God. This could be called 'folk Christianity' as practised by many in English churches. This is a religion of fear. And this needs to be fought. That's why I encouraged you in your criticisms. **** True Christianity is all about love which casts our fear (1 John 4:18). God so loved us that he sent his Son, Jesus, to pay the penalty for our sins. He died in our place. He took our punishment. As we come to him in repentance (we stop going our way and go His) he accepts us as his children. He gives us his spirit to assure us that we are saved for eternity by him. From now on, there only needs to be love between God and his children. We have no fear of death, for the welcoming arms of our father are there to greet us. We have no fear of anything, because if the Number One Person of the Universe is for us, who can possibly be against us. Hope this helps. Revkev

6:04pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
Exactly Joe,

Someone can be a very bad person and still claim to be a Christian, as the massacre of the week proclaims in organ tones.

You don't have to be a Christian to be good or bad. Religion has not got the monopoly on good and bad.
Hi Ken
You might be interested to read my response to Joe above.
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Exactly Joe, Someone can be a very bad person and still claim to be a Christian, as the massacre of the week proclaims in organ tones. You don't have to be a Christian to be good or bad. Religion has not got the monopoly on good and bad.[/p][/quote]Hi Ken You might be interested to read my response to Joe above. Revkev

6:11pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Revkev says...

Excluded again wrote:
Revkev wrote:
Excluded again wrote:
Interesting blog, given its date and time - 12.20pm on Saturday 23 July.

A terrorist who openly describes his motivation as being a Christian murders 84 people in Norway. This news broke and the identity and beliefs of the terrorist were known several hours before Rev Logan had wirtten this piece.

I am not suggesting for one second that Rev Logan has even the remotest connection or sympathy for the views of Anders Breivik. I'm absolutely and completely certain that Rev Logan is as sickened by these crimes as the rest of us. Not all Christians think the same.

But the crimes were carried out in the name of his religion. But he felt no need to address this, to condemn the action as a Christian and to explain why in his view Christianity is a religion of peace not hatred.

It is an interested contrast to what is expected of Muslim clerics when Islamic terrorists carry out mass murders.
Hi Excluded again,
I write my column on Thursdays and submit it first thing on Friday morning to hit my deadline.
The sad and tragic killings didn't begun until several hours after my deadline.
Fair enough, Rev Logan.

This was far from clear from the piece which gave a date and time well after we knew who carried out the terrorist attacks on Friday.

Might make a suitable subject for this weeks blog?
Hi Excluded again
I can see where the confusion arose about when I wrote the column.
The date and time given above was the actual time the sub-editor got round to putting the column online.
Re. using it as the topic for next week
We'll see.
[quote][p][bold]Excluded again[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Excluded again[/bold] wrote: Interesting blog, given its date and time - 12.20pm on Saturday 23 July. A terrorist who openly describes his motivation as being a Christian murders 84 people in Norway. This news broke and the identity and beliefs of the terrorist were known several hours before Rev Logan had wirtten this piece. I am not suggesting for one second that Rev Logan has even the remotest connection or sympathy for the views of Anders Breivik. I'm absolutely and completely certain that Rev Logan is as sickened by these crimes as the rest of us. Not all Christians think the same. But the crimes were carried out in the name of his religion. But he felt no need to address this, to condemn the action as a Christian and to explain why in his view Christianity is a religion of peace not hatred. It is an interested contrast to what is expected of Muslim clerics when Islamic terrorists carry out mass murders.[/p][/quote]Hi Excluded again, I write my column on Thursdays and submit it first thing on Friday morning to hit my deadline. The sad and tragic killings didn't begun until several hours after my deadline.[/p][/quote]Fair enough, Rev Logan. This was far from clear from the piece which gave a date and time well after we knew who carried out the terrorist attacks on Friday. Might make a suitable subject for this weeks blog?[/p][/quote]Hi Excluded again I can see where the confusion arose about when I wrote the column. The date and time given above was the actual time the sub-editor got round to putting the column online. Re. using it as the topic for next week We'll see. Revkev

10:34pm Mon 25 Jul 11

Graham Hartley says...

Nostradamous wrote:
Graham Hartley wrote:
Kevin writes - "For the murderer of (so far) five patients by injection insulin into saline drips, an Almighty Judge will one day have to be faced; One who doesn’t take kindly to the unlawful taking life which he created." . 2 Kings 2:23-25 describes the mauling of forty-two children by bears after the prophet Elisha had cursed them (the children) for teasing him about his baldness. So here the taking of the children's lives was lawful? Or awful?
Source Google.
--------------------

---------
Idolatry was rampant in Israel during the days of the prophet Elisha, and paganism influenced young and old alike. On one occasion the great prophet was traveling from Jericho towards Bethel when some “little children” (KJV), or “young lads” (ASV), accosted him and cried: “Go up, you baldhead. Go up, you baldhead,” whereupon Elisha cursed them in the name of God, and called two bears out of the forest that mauled the youths (2 Kings 2:23-25).

Some have cited this as a case of obvious child abuse and an example of conduct that would be unworthy of a prophet of Jehovah. Several alleged problems require our attention.

First, the rendition “little children” is unfortunate. The Hebrew word is naar, a generic term which can encompass anyone from an infant to a mature man – the context being the deciding factor. Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29).

Contextual evidence in 2 Kings 2 indicates that the youths harassing Elisha were spiritually mature. For instance, they “mocked” the prophet; the term is not employed of innocent, childish conduct (cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16).

The admonition, “Go up … go up,” likely reveals the wish that he would ascend (like Elijah did), i.e., it reflected their desire to be rid of him. The reference to baldness may be a curse-wish of these rebels (cf. Isaiah 3:17a,24). Clearly, these young men were not sympathetic with the mission of God’s prophet.

Second, the term “curse” is a pronouncement of divine judgment upon these spiritual misfits (cf. Genesis 9:25; 49:7; Deuteronomy 27:15ff; Joshua 6:26).

Third, the tragedy that befell these young men was obviously by divine design since Elisha would have possessed no personal power to call bears from the woods to do his bidding. But the sovereignty of God over the animal world is alluded to frequently in the Scriptures (see Numbers 21:6).

Thus, in connection with the key problem words in this context, make appropriate notations from the preceding comments, such as: Underline “children,” and note that the original term can mean a mature man.
Kevin, the point I wanted to make in using the well-known account from Kings is that if God had created those lives then He would not 'take kindly' to the unlawful taking of them. It seems to follow that God regarded the taking of those lives as lawful, unless we can understand how God could not 'take kindly' with Himself. This is perilously close to what humans are pleased to call a logical impossibility. The resolution of the matter may depend upon what you mean by 'take kindly' or perhaps some nuance in the Hebrew.
[quote][p][bold]Nostradamous[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Graham Hartley[/bold] wrote: Kevin writes - "For the murderer of (so far) five patients by injection insulin into saline drips, an Almighty Judge will one day have to be faced; One who doesn’t take kindly to the unlawful taking life which he created." . 2 Kings 2:23-25 describes the mauling of forty-two children by bears after the prophet Elisha had cursed them (the children) for teasing him about his baldness. So here the taking of the children's lives was lawful? Or awful?[/p][/quote]Source Google. -------------------- --------- Idolatry was rampant in Israel during the days of the prophet Elisha, and paganism influenced young and old alike. On one occasion the great prophet was traveling from Jericho towards Bethel when some “little children” (KJV), or “young lads” (ASV), accosted him and cried: “Go up, you baldhead. Go up, you baldhead,” whereupon Elisha cursed them in the name of God, and called two bears out of the forest that mauled the youths (2 Kings 2:23-25). Some have cited this as a case of obvious child abuse and an example of conduct that would be unworthy of a prophet of Jehovah. Several alleged problems require our attention. First, the rendition “little children” is unfortunate. The Hebrew word is naar, a generic term which can encompass anyone from an infant to a mature man – the context being the deciding factor. Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29). Contextual evidence in 2 Kings 2 indicates that the youths harassing Elisha were spiritually mature. For instance, they “mocked” the prophet; the term is not employed of innocent, childish conduct (cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16). The admonition, “Go up … go up,” likely reveals the wish that he would ascend (like Elijah did), i.e., it reflected their desire to be rid of him. The reference to baldness may be a curse-wish of these rebels (cf. Isaiah 3:17a,24). Clearly, these young men were not sympathetic with the mission of God’s prophet. Second, the term “curse” is a pronouncement of divine judgment upon these spiritual misfits (cf. Genesis 9:25; 49:7; Deuteronomy 27:15ff; Joshua 6:26). Third, the tragedy that befell these young men was obviously by divine design since Elisha would have possessed no personal power to call bears from the woods to do his bidding. But the sovereignty of God over the animal world is alluded to frequently in the Scriptures (see Numbers 21:6). Thus, in connection with the key problem words in this context, make appropriate notations from the preceding comments, such as: Underline “children,” and note that the original term can mean a mature man.[/p][/quote]Kevin, the point I wanted to make in using the well-known account from Kings is that if God had created those lives then He would not 'take kindly' to the unlawful taking of them. It seems to follow that God regarded the taking of those lives as lawful, unless we can understand how God could not 'take kindly' with Himself. This is perilously close to what humans are pleased to call a logical impossibility. The resolution of the matter may depend upon what you mean by 'take kindly' or perhaps some nuance in the Hebrew. Graham Hartley

7:09am Tue 26 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

Graham Hartley wrote:
Nostradamous wrote:
Graham Hartley wrote: Kevin writes - "For the murderer of (so far) five patients by injection insulin into saline drips, an Almighty Judge will one day have to be faced; One who doesn’t take kindly to the unlawful taking life which he created." . 2 Kings 2:23-25 describes the mauling of forty-two children by bears after the prophet Elisha had cursed them (the children) for teasing him about his baldness. So here the taking of the children's lives was lawful? Or awful?
Source Google. -------------------- --------- Idolatry was rampant in Israel during the days of the prophet Elisha, and paganism influenced young and old alike. On one occasion the great prophet was traveling from Jericho towards Bethel when some “little children” (KJV), or “young lads” (ASV), accosted him and cried: “Go up, you baldhead. Go up, you baldhead,” whereupon Elisha cursed them in the name of God, and called two bears out of the forest that mauled the youths (2 Kings 2:23-25). Some have cited this as a case of obvious child abuse and an example of conduct that would be unworthy of a prophet of Jehovah. Several alleged problems require our attention. First, the rendition “little children” is unfortunate. The Hebrew word is naar, a generic term which can encompass anyone from an infant to a mature man – the context being the deciding factor. Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29). Contextual evidence in 2 Kings 2 indicates that the youths harassing Elisha were spiritually mature. For instance, they “mocked” the prophet; the term is not employed of innocent, childish conduct (cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16). The admonition, “Go up … go up,” likely reveals the wish that he would ascend (like Elijah did), i.e., it reflected their desire to be rid of him. The reference to baldness may be a curse-wish of these rebels (cf. Isaiah 3:17a,24). Clearly, these young men were not sympathetic with the mission of God’s prophet. Second, the term “curse” is a pronouncement of divine judgment upon these spiritual misfits (cf. Genesis 9:25; 49:7; Deuteronomy 27:15ff; Joshua 6:26). Third, the tragedy that befell these young men was obviously by divine design since Elisha would have possessed no personal power to call bears from the woods to do his bidding. But the sovereignty of God over the animal world is alluded to frequently in the Scriptures (see Numbers 21:6). Thus, in connection with the key problem words in this context, make appropriate notations from the preceding comments, such as: Underline “children,” and note that the original term can mean a mature man.
Kevin, the point I wanted to make in using the well-known account from Kings is that if God had created those lives then He would not 'take kindly' to the unlawful taking of them. It seems to follow that God regarded the taking of those lives as lawful, unless we can understand how God could not 'take kindly' with Himself. This is perilously close to what humans are pleased to call a logical impossibility. The resolution of the matter may depend upon what you mean by 'take kindly' or perhaps some nuance in the Hebrew.
Hi Graham..lol..Or the story could be a teaching one with an entirely different meaning,i.e consequences of treating with dis respect gods chosen ones maybe,it is all about how you see the bible story,but it will be interesting to see what he (kevin) has to say on this,as it is a cracking question,and one maybe that is ready for the perfect answer,by the way isnt it nice to see everyone being pleasant and civilised,i love it when it is like this,,no sceaming from Joe and you asking with pleasantness perfectly good questions,it makes you wonder whats happening to the place,i have an idea and in truth i have played a huge part in it all,i love it.
[quote][p][bold]Graham Hartley[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nostradamous[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Graham Hartley[/bold] wrote: Kevin writes - "For the murderer of (so far) five patients by injection insulin into saline drips, an Almighty Judge will one day have to be faced; One who doesn’t take kindly to the unlawful taking life which he created." . 2 Kings 2:23-25 describes the mauling of forty-two children by bears after the prophet Elisha had cursed them (the children) for teasing him about his baldness. So here the taking of the children's lives was lawful? Or awful?[/p][/quote]Source Google. -------------------- --------- Idolatry was rampant in Israel during the days of the prophet Elisha, and paganism influenced young and old alike. On one occasion the great prophet was traveling from Jericho towards Bethel when some “little children” (KJV), or “young lads” (ASV), accosted him and cried: “Go up, you baldhead. Go up, you baldhead,” whereupon Elisha cursed them in the name of God, and called two bears out of the forest that mauled the youths (2 Kings 2:23-25). Some have cited this as a case of obvious child abuse and an example of conduct that would be unworthy of a prophet of Jehovah. Several alleged problems require our attention. First, the rendition “little children” is unfortunate. The Hebrew word is naar, a generic term which can encompass anyone from an infant to a mature man – the context being the deciding factor. Joseph was called a naar when he was thirty years old (cf. Genesis 41:12,40,46). Joshua was a naar when he was forty-five to fifty years of age (Exodus 33:11; Joshua 24:29). Contextual evidence in 2 Kings 2 indicates that the youths harassing Elisha were spiritually mature. For instance, they “mocked” the prophet; the term is not employed of innocent, childish conduct (cf. 2 Chronicles 36:16). The admonition, “Go up … go up,” likely reveals the wish that he would ascend (like Elijah did), i.e., it reflected their desire to be rid of him. The reference to baldness may be a curse-wish of these rebels (cf. Isaiah 3:17a,24). Clearly, these young men were not sympathetic with the mission of God’s prophet. Second, the term “curse” is a pronouncement of divine judgment upon these spiritual misfits (cf. Genesis 9:25; 49:7; Deuteronomy 27:15ff; Joshua 6:26). Third, the tragedy that befell these young men was obviously by divine design since Elisha would have possessed no personal power to call bears from the woods to do his bidding. But the sovereignty of God over the animal world is alluded to frequently in the Scriptures (see Numbers 21:6). Thus, in connection with the key problem words in this context, make appropriate notations from the preceding comments, such as: Underline “children,” and note that the original term can mean a mature man.[/p][/quote]Kevin, the point I wanted to make in using the well-known account from Kings is that if God had created those lives then He would not 'take kindly' to the unlawful taking of them. It seems to follow that God regarded the taking of those lives as lawful, unless we can understand how God could not 'take kindly' with Himself. This is perilously close to what humans are pleased to call a logical impossibility. The resolution of the matter may depend upon what you mean by 'take kindly' or perhaps some nuance in the Hebrew.[/p][/quote]Hi Graham..lol..Or the story could be a teaching one with an entirely different meaning,i.e consequences of treating with dis respect gods chosen ones maybe,it is all about how you see the bible story,but it will be interesting to see what he (kevin) has to say on this,as it is a cracking question,and one maybe that is ready for the perfect answer,by the way isnt it nice to see everyone being pleasant and civilised,i love it when it is like this,,no sceaming from Joe and you asking with pleasantness perfectly good questions,it makes you wonder whats happening to the place,i have an idea and in truth i have played a huge part in it all,i love it. Nostradamous

7:27am Tue 26 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there.
You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books
--------------------
---
Kevin which religion would that be then?,it sounds very much like the one i was taught at school,you are a very presumptuos man you know.
There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there. You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books -------------------- --- Kevin which religion would that be then?,it sounds very much like the one i was taught at school,you are a very presumptuos man you know. Nostradamous

10:17am Tue 26 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Nostradamous wrote:
Of course Ken and Joe in my oppinion you are both so right,humans do have an inherent feeling of good and bad,you dont have to be spiritually motivated to have the hold on all things good,no way,also on the other hand as has been shown many times even people who claim to be spiritual(religous) can indeed be very bad,it is how you develope,how you have been taught and to what extent you have been touched by God,please consider this,when Jesus was giving his sermon on the mount,quite a crowd had gathered to listen,this crowd for some unknown reason was called to listen,they droped all they were doing and went to learn,but no doubt countless other people in the near vicinity just carried on with there daily chores,why this situation is that some people believe and others dont i just do not know,i now see the failings in recognised Christian religion and why so many have lost faith in such a belief,and maybe that is why such mis understandings have occured.
Hi Nosty,


.


Some People listened and some didn't because some felt captivated and some didn't. It didn't matter to Jesus that some didn't listen. What mattered to Jesus, were the ones that did. He Loved the ones that did and they Loved him. There was a bond of Love, without that bond, that contract of Love and Gratitude, no one would ever have listened to a joiner from Nazareth whatever he was offering.


.


People felt something with Jesus, what he said may have been controversial. What he said, may have seemed irrational, but those who listened trusted themselves with the Love they felt, and they invested in the Love they felt more than anything they had ever been taught or thought.


.


They felt the Love, it wasn't a matter of belief, chapter, line, paragraph, page number and verse. They simply felt something, and that feeling was all they needed to know.
[quote][p][bold]Nostradamous[/bold] wrote: Of course Ken and Joe in my oppinion you are both so right,humans do have an inherent feeling of good and bad,you dont have to be spiritually motivated to have the hold on all things good,no way,also on the other hand as has been shown many times even people who claim to be spiritual(religous) can indeed be very bad,it is how you develope,how you have been taught and to what extent you have been touched by God,please consider this,when Jesus was giving his sermon on the mount,quite a crowd had gathered to listen,this crowd for some unknown reason was called to listen,they droped all they were doing and went to learn,but no doubt countless other people in the near vicinity just carried on with there daily chores,why this situation is that some people believe and others dont i just do not know,i now see the failings in recognised Christian religion and why so many have lost faith in such a belief,and maybe that is why such mis understandings have occured.[/p][/quote]Hi Nosty, . Some People listened and some didn't because some felt captivated and some didn't. It didn't matter to Jesus that some didn't listen. What mattered to Jesus, were the ones that did. He Loved the ones that did and they Loved him. There was a bond of Love, without that bond, that contract of Love and Gratitude, no one would ever have listened to a joiner from Nazareth whatever he was offering. . People felt something with Jesus, what he said may have been controversial. What he said, may have seemed irrational, but those who listened trusted themselves with the Love they felt, and they invested in the Love they felt more than anything they had ever been taught or thought. . They felt the Love, it wasn't a matter of belief, chapter, line, paragraph, page number and verse. They simply felt something, and that feeling was all they needed to know. Ken Shuffles

10:44am Tue 26 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Revkev wrote:
Joseph Yossarian wrote:
Revkev wrote:
Joseph Yossarian wrote: Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." What egotistical pomposity!
Hi Joe, God loves to give his children lots of good things. He'd love to give them to you too.
Do you really think that you need to believe in your brand of religion to be kind? to be good? To be gentle and show self control? That is what you appear to be saying. Do you think that without your religion you would somehow become a bad person? If that's the case, then you are a bad person anyway. Religion is merely your cover story.
Hi Joe All men and women are capable of good. I believe we were created in God's image and as such have his grace - what is know as common grace. xx However, we fell from the perfection of that image when we decided to be our own gods. But, as your experience tells you, we're still quite capable of doing good and being kind. We can do this not because we evolved to be like this and found it beneficial to survival to behave in this way, but because God gave us his grace, and we still act in his image, albeit in a damaged way. xx What I was trying to point out in the column was that when we allow God to come back into our lives, His Spirit begins to mend the damaged parts so that we can be the humans he truly meant us to be. This means we can know true joy, peace, love etc., rather than the paler version experienced by fallen humanity. It's just another way of saying we each need to come back to our Maker to work according to his original design.
We need to understand our fundamental existence. Religion confuses this with various reasons and opinions regarding the creation of the world.


Birth, and what we think and do before Death, has no connection with our fundamental existence, but in the absence of knowing the true nature of our existence, we are forgiven for misunderstanding the world of birth, time and death to be what constitutes our reality.


.


Jesus changed a persons understanding of what they had previously thought to be the reality.


.


He didn't offer a solution for fixing mans illusion of a broken and damaged world. Jesus brought an end to the Coma of the world, birth and death, and ushered in The Love and Reality of Existence for those who wanted it.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." What egotistical pomposity![/p][/quote]Hi Joe, God loves to give his children lots of good things. He'd love to give them to you too.[/p][/quote]Do you really think that you need to believe in your brand of religion to be kind? to be good? To be gentle and show self control? That is what you appear to be saying. Do you think that without your religion you would somehow become a bad person? If that's the case, then you are a bad person anyway. Religion is merely your cover story.[/p][/quote]Hi Joe All men and women are capable of good. I believe we were created in God's image and as such have his grace - what is know as common grace. xx However, we fell from the perfection of that image when we decided to be our own gods. But, as your experience tells you, we're still quite capable of doing good and being kind. We can do this not because we evolved to be like this and found it beneficial to survival to behave in this way, but because God gave us his grace, and we still act in his image, albeit in a damaged way. xx What I was trying to point out in the column was that when we allow God to come back into our lives, His Spirit begins to mend the damaged parts so that we can be the humans he truly meant us to be. This means we can know true joy, peace, love etc., rather than the paler version experienced by fallen humanity. It's just another way of saying we each need to come back to our Maker to work according to his original design.[/p][/quote]We need to understand our fundamental existence. Religion confuses this with various reasons and opinions regarding the creation of the world. Birth, and what we think and do before Death, has no connection with our fundamental existence, but in the absence of knowing the true nature of our existence, we are forgiven for misunderstanding the world of birth, time and death to be what constitutes our reality. . Jesus changed a persons understanding of what they had previously thought to be the reality. . He didn't offer a solution for fixing mans illusion of a broken and damaged world. Jesus brought an end to the Coma of the world, birth and death, and ushered in The Love and Reality of Existence for those who wanted it. Ken Shuffles

12:31pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

Revkev wrote:
Joseph Yossarian wrote:
So what are the consequences?
What is the punishment is to be feared?
They will lose out big time? How?
Only last week you said
""Joe, fight on against this religion of fear.""
But there you go, banging on about fear, punishment, higher authority…..


Ps I have to respond to higher authority is the standard excuse of religious people who have been caught breaking the law. It’s pathetic.

You don't need religion to be a good person.
Hi Joe
There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there.
You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books.
xx
This type of religion is based on good works - trying to be good enough to get into heaven, or get accepted by God.
This could be called 'folk Christianity' as practised by many in English churches.
This is a religion of fear.
And this needs to be fought. That's why I encouraged you in your criticisms.
****
True Christianity is all about love which casts our fear (1 John 4:18).
God so loved us that he sent his Son, Jesus, to pay the penalty for our sins. He died in our place. He took our punishment.
As we come to him in repentance (we stop going our way and go His) he accepts us as his children.
He gives us his spirit to assure us that we are saved for eternity by him.
From now on, there only needs to be love between God and his children.
We have no fear of death, for the welcoming arms of our father are there to greet us.
We have no fear of anything, because if the Number One Person of the Universe is for us, who can possibly be against us.
Hope this helps.
your brand of religion is two-faced and hypocritical. It is happy-clappy joy of jesus, with the stick of hell behind it. You are just as guilty of spreading fear as all the others. If anything, the extremism of your ideology makes you worse.

As to your ridiculous theory that god gives goodness and evolution has nothing to do with it, well, show me the evidence.

You can't. All you can do is give quotes from the old testament book of genocide.
Your brand of religion creates division and fear.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: So what are the consequences? What is the punishment is to be feared? They will lose out big time? How? Only last week you said ""Joe, fight on against this religion of fear."" But there you go, banging on about fear, punishment, higher authority….. Ps I have to respond to higher authority is the standard excuse of religious people who have been caught breaking the law. It’s pathetic. You don't need religion to be a good person.[/p][/quote]Hi Joe There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there. You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books. xx This type of religion is based on good works - trying to be good enough to get into heaven, or get accepted by God. This could be called 'folk Christianity' as practised by many in English churches. This is a religion of fear. And this needs to be fought. That's why I encouraged you in your criticisms. **** True Christianity is all about love which casts our fear (1 John 4:18). God so loved us that he sent his Son, Jesus, to pay the penalty for our sins. He died in our place. He took our punishment. As we come to him in repentance (we stop going our way and go His) he accepts us as his children. He gives us his spirit to assure us that we are saved for eternity by him. From now on, there only needs to be love between God and his children. We have no fear of death, for the welcoming arms of our father are there to greet us. We have no fear of anything, because if the Number One Person of the Universe is for us, who can possibly be against us. Hope this helps.[/p][/quote]your brand of religion is two-faced and hypocritical. It is happy-clappy joy of jesus, with the stick of hell behind it. You are just as guilty of spreading fear as all the others. If anything, the extremism of your ideology makes you worse. As to your ridiculous theory that god gives goodness and evolution has nothing to do with it, well, show me the evidence. You can't. All you can do is give quotes from the old testament book of genocide. Your brand of religion creates division and fear. Joseph Yossarian

12:56pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

Joe wrote,,Your brand of religion creates division and
Joe of course it does,and Kevin should never forget that we were forced to gain knowledge of his religion wether we wanted it or not,i know that you do not like the Bible in any form Joe, but i do wish you had the bible interpretation that i have been given now,it may or may not help you see things in a total different light,but one thing you will see is an explanation of Gods word from Genesis to revelation,it isnt all about saying you love Jesus and accept him as your saviour, and there you go, you are on your way to a land fit for heroes up in the sky somewhere,thats rubbish mate and whats more it does not tell you that is how it is in the Bible either.

--------------------
--------
Ken i would like to say that what you wrote there about Jesus,was lovely and heart warming,thank you.
Joe wrote,,Your brand of religion creates division and Joe of course it does,and Kevin should never forget that we were forced to gain knowledge of his religion wether we wanted it or not,i know that you do not like the Bible in any form Joe, but i do wish you had the bible interpretation that i have been given now,it may or may not help you see things in a total different light,but one thing you will see is an explanation of Gods word from Genesis to revelation,it isnt all about saying you love Jesus and accept him as your saviour, and there you go, you are on your way to a land fit for heroes up in the sky somewhere,thats rubbish mate and whats more it does not tell you that is how it is in the Bible either. -------------------- -------- Ken i would like to say that what you wrote there about Jesus,was lovely and heart warming,thank you. Nostradamous

1:17pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Wittoner says...

Joseph Yossarian wrote:
Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." What egotistical pomposity!
Yes but is that not what religion is all about,you know being told by the gracious and rightuoes how wonderfull sinners (with tounge in cheek they say that) they are,but we unbelievers are much much worse,they go direct to heaven with god stood there waiting,whilst we go into a fire of brimstone,hypocrosy at its worst.
[quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: Rev says"receivers of God’s Spirit will benefit bounteously from other divine fruits such as joy, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." What egotistical pomposity![/p][/quote]Yes but is that not what religion is all about,you know being told by the gracious and rightuoes how wonderfull sinners (with tounge in cheek they say that) they are,but we unbelievers are much much worse,they go direct to heaven with god stood there waiting,whilst we go into a fire of brimstone,hypocrosy at its worst. Wittoner

3:46pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Well, your most welcome Nosty, I try to liberate the Heart of Man from the rollercoaster of goods and bads if I can, and if I can release them from the coma of rights and wrongs, goods and bads introduce them to the Beautiful Feeling which they Truly Love. Which they have always Loved.
Well, your most welcome Nosty, I try to liberate the Heart of Man from the rollercoaster of goods and bads if I can, and if I can release them from the coma of rights and wrongs, goods and bads introduce them to the Beautiful Feeling which they Truly Love. Which they have always Loved. Ken Shuffles

3:59pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Jesus touched People with Love, not rules, not regulations, and certainly not rites and ceremonies. Nobody ever felt threatened by his joinery skills, but when it came to Love His Knowledge and Power was way beyond anything a religion could accomplish just with the words alone.


.


If mere words were enough, then Jesus would never have been needed to be here at all.
Jesus touched People with Love, not rules, not regulations, and certainly not rites and ceremonies. Nobody ever felt threatened by his joinery skills, but when it came to Love His Knowledge and Power was way beyond anything a religion could accomplish just with the words alone. . If mere words were enough, then Jesus would never have been needed to be here at all. Ken Shuffles

4:04pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Putting it simply, The feeling of this Love is beyond words.
Putting it simply, The feeling of this Love is beyond words. Ken Shuffles

4:15pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Everyone is looking for the same thing, whether you call it peace or god or truth or whatever, it makes no difference. We humans are all looking for the same thing, we came from the same place, landed at the same port and we are all looking for the same well to quench us.


.


Some come with cupped hands and some come with decorated vessels and some come with buckets and bottles and containers. It doesn't matter how different all the vessels are, what matters is that the thirst is truly quenched inside of you.
Everyone is looking for the same thing, whether you call it peace or god or truth or whatever, it makes no difference. We humans are all looking for the same thing, we came from the same place, landed at the same port and we are all looking for the same well to quench us. . Some come with cupped hands and some come with decorated vessels and some come with buckets and bottles and containers. It doesn't matter how different all the vessels are, what matters is that the thirst is truly quenched inside of you. Ken Shuffles

4:21pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Jesus said, everything you have ever wanted to find is right there inside of you now.
Jesus said, everything you have ever wanted to find is right there inside of you now. Ken Shuffles

4:26pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

JESUS WAS A PERSON/BEING/KINDNES
S WHO COULD PUT EVERY RELIGION ON EARTH CLEAN OUT OF BUSINESS.
JESUS WAS A PERSON/BEING/KINDNES S WHO COULD PUT EVERY RELIGION ON EARTH CLEAN OUT OF BUSINESS. Ken Shuffles

5:12pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

Revkev wrote:
Joseph Yossarian wrote:
So what are the consequences?
What is the punishment is to be feared?
They will lose out big time? How?
Only last week you said
""Joe, fight on against this religion of fear.""
But there you go, banging on about fear, punishment, higher authority…..


Ps I have to respond to higher authority is the standard excuse of religious people who have been caught breaking the law. It’s pathetic.

You don't need religion to be a good person.
Hi Joe
There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there.
You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books.
xx
This type of religion is based on good works - trying to be good enough to get into heaven, or get accepted by God.
This could be called 'folk Christianity' as practised by many in English churches.
This is a religion of fear.
And this needs to be fought. That's why I encouraged you in your criticisms.
****
True Christianity is all about love which casts our fear (1 John 4:18).
God so loved us that he sent his Son, Jesus, to pay the penalty for our sins. He died in our place. He took our punishment.
As we come to him in repentance (we stop going our way and go His) he accepts us as his children.
He gives us his spirit to assure us that we are saved for eternity by him.
From now on, there only needs to be love between God and his children.
We have no fear of death, for the welcoming arms of our father are there to greet us.
We have no fear of anything, because if the Number One Person of the Universe is for us, who can possibly be against us.
Hope this helps.
No help at all. questions asked - four.
Questions answered - none.

Regurgitated ideology - lots.
Here are the questions. See if you can answer then one by one with reference to facts:

So what are the consequences?
What is the punishment is to be feared?
They will lose out big time?
How?
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Joseph Yossarian[/bold] wrote: So what are the consequences? What is the punishment is to be feared? They will lose out big time? How? Only last week you said ""Joe, fight on against this religion of fear."" But there you go, banging on about fear, punishment, higher authority….. Ps I have to respond to higher authority is the standard excuse of religious people who have been caught breaking the law. It’s pathetic. You don't need religion to be a good person.[/p][/quote]Hi Joe There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there. You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books. xx This type of religion is based on good works - trying to be good enough to get into heaven, or get accepted by God. This could be called 'folk Christianity' as practised by many in English churches. This is a religion of fear. And this needs to be fought. That's why I encouraged you in your criticisms. **** True Christianity is all about love which casts our fear (1 John 4:18). God so loved us that he sent his Son, Jesus, to pay the penalty for our sins. He died in our place. He took our punishment. As we come to him in repentance (we stop going our way and go His) he accepts us as his children. He gives us his spirit to assure us that we are saved for eternity by him. From now on, there only needs to be love between God and his children. We have no fear of death, for the welcoming arms of our father are there to greet us. We have no fear of anything, because if the Number One Person of the Universe is for us, who can possibly be against us. Hope this helps.[/p][/quote]No help at all. questions asked - four. Questions answered - none. Regurgitated ideology - lots. Here are the questions. See if you can answer then one by one with reference to facts: So what are the consequences? What is the punishment is to be feared? They will lose out big time? How? Joseph Yossarian

9:07pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Revkev says...

Nostradamous wrote:
There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there.
You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books
--------------------

---
Kevin which religion would that be then?,it sounds very much like the one i was taught at school,you are a very presumptuos man you know.
Hi Nosti
It probably is the one you were brought up with.
I was certainly brought up with it.
The experience was always full of fear and trying my best to please a terrible God, and not succeeding.
I stopped going to church when I was 19, when I left home to work away.
I didn't become a Christian until I was 28, when I went back to the bible, during a low part of my life, and found this incredibly loving God full of amazing grace.
Why do you say I am a very presumptuous man?
[quote][p][bold]Nostradamous[/bold] wrote: There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there. You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books -------------------- --- Kevin which religion would that be then?,it sounds very much like the one i was taught at school,you are a very presumptuos man you know.[/p][/quote]Hi Nosti It probably is the one you were brought up with. I was certainly brought up with it. The experience was always full of fear and trying my best to please a terrible God, and not succeeding. I stopped going to church when I was 19, when I left home to work away. I didn't become a Christian until I was 28, when I went back to the bible, during a low part of my life, and found this incredibly loving God full of amazing grace. Why do you say I am a very presumptuous man? Revkev

9:16pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Revkev says...

Hi Ken,
You write of Jesus ...
xxxxx
"He didn't offer a solution for fixing man's illusion of a broken and damaged world.
"Jesus brought an end to the Coma of the world, birth and death, and ushered in The Love and Reality of Existence for those who wanted it."
xxxxxx
Jesus was the solution (John 14 - he says, "I am the way, the truth and the Life.)
He was the saviour.
He came to show us the way back to the Father ("no-one comes to the father but by me).
Hi Ken, You write of Jesus ... xxxxx "He didn't offer a solution for fixing man's illusion of a broken and damaged world. "Jesus brought an end to the Coma of the world, birth and death, and ushered in The Love and Reality of Existence for those who wanted it." xxxxxx Jesus was the solution (John 14 - he says, "I am the way, the truth and the Life.) He was the saviour. He came to show us the way back to the Father ("no-one comes to the father but by me). Revkev

10:56pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Graham Hartley says...

Revkev writes in reply to Nosti - "I didn't become a Christian until I was 28, when I went back to the bible, during a low part of my life, and found this incredibly loving God full of amazing grace."
.
I've read and re-read the Bible and found that there are indeed accounts of a loving God and also accounts of a God Whose (should that be capital 'W'?) wrath is terrible. Yet both want me to believe in Them.
Revkev writes in reply to Nosti - "I didn't become a Christian until I was 28, when I went back to the bible, during a low part of my life, and found this incredibly loving God full of amazing grace." . I've read and re-read the Bible and found that there are indeed accounts of a loving God and also accounts of a God Whose (should that be capital 'W'?) wrath is terrible. Yet both want me to believe in Them. Graham Hartley

11:18pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Revkev says...

Hi Joe,
You ask...
xxxxx
"So what are the consequences?
What is the punishment is to be feared?
They will lose out big time?
How?"
xxxxx
Those who choose to be their own mini-gods will know the absence of the One True God.
That's what he tells us in his word.
He's no dictator.
He will not insist that everybody follows him.
This is what free will is all about.
He won't insist that every human he loves spend eternity with him.
He has withdrawn himself from an area/state/part of his creation.
And that means that every God is, is also withdrawn.
So...
God is Love.
Farewell to love.
God is light... truth... the way... life.
Farewell to all this.
No love, no light.
The absence of all the goodness that is God.
That sounds like hell, Joe.
Hi Joe, You ask... xxxxx "So what are the consequences? What is the punishment is to be feared? They will lose out big time? How?" xxxxx Those who choose to be their own mini-gods will know the absence of the One True God. That's what he tells us in his word. He's no dictator. He will not insist that everybody follows him. This is what free will is all about. He won't insist that every human he loves spend eternity with him. He has withdrawn himself from an area/state/part of his creation. And that means that every God is, is also withdrawn. So... God is Love. Farewell to love. God is light... truth... the way... life. Farewell to all this. No love, no light. The absence of all the goodness that is God. That sounds like hell, Joe. Revkev

11:46pm Tue 26 Jul 11

Graham Hartley says...

From Revkev -
.
"God is Love.
Farewell to love.
God is light... truth... the way... life.
Farewell to all this.
No love, no light.
.
Is there no love, truth, way, life or light without God?
.
Quite how those folk on other planets manage isn't explained by this account.
From Revkev - . "God is Love. Farewell to love. God is light... truth... the way... life. Farewell to all this. No love, no light. . Is there no love, truth, way, life or light without God? . Quite how those folk on other planets manage isn't explained by this account. Graham Hartley

7:58am Wed 27 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

Graham Hartley wrote:
Revkev writes in reply to Nosti - "I didn't become a Christian until I was 28, when I went back to the bible, during a low part of my life, and found this incredibly loving God full of amazing grace." . I've read and re-read the Bible and found that there are indeed accounts of a loving God and also accounts of a God Whose (should that be capital 'W'?) wrath is terrible. Yet both want me to believe in Them.
Hi Graham,yes i do with all my heart want you to believe,i am sure it wont make you a better person,for me you are what you are,it can just be fine tuned thats all, i believe you must search for the true way of worship,a true bible understanding but above all who God really is that must be the starting point for your love of god,who really is God and what things does he want me to do to make himhappy,then it must be asked,for what is his purpose for our eistemce , is there any real point in our existence,is there more to life than this,i firmly believe that yes there is.
[quote][p][bold]Graham Hartley[/bold] wrote: Revkev writes in reply to Nosti - "I didn't become a Christian until I was 28, when I went back to the bible, during a low part of my life, and found this incredibly loving God full of amazing grace." . I've read and re-read the Bible and found that there are indeed accounts of a loving God and also accounts of a God Whose (should that be capital 'W'?) wrath is terrible. Yet both want me to believe in Them.[/p][/quote]Hi Graham,yes i do with all my heart want you to believe,i am sure it wont make you a better person,for me you are what you are,it can just be fine tuned thats all, i believe you must search for the true way of worship,a true bible understanding but above all who God really is that must be the starting point for your love of god,who really is God and what things does he want me to do to make himhappy,then it must be asked,for what is his purpose for our eistemce , is there any real point in our existence,is there more to life than this,i firmly believe that yes there is. Nostradamous

8:24am Wed 27 Jul 11

Joseph Yossarian says...

Revkev wrote:
Hi Joe, You ask... xxxxx "So what are the consequences? What is the punishment is to be feared? They will lose out big time? How?" xxxxx Those who choose to be their own mini-gods will know the absence of the One True God. That's what he tells us in his word. He's no dictator. He will not insist that everybody follows him. This is what free will is all about. He won't insist that every human he loves spend eternity with him. He has withdrawn himself from an area/state/part of his creation. And that means that every God is, is also withdrawn. So... God is Love. Farewell to love. God is light... truth... the way... life. Farewell to all this. No love, no light. The absence of all the goodness that is God. That sounds like hell, Joe.
So what you are saying is that god is that selfish, that immature and that egotistical that only those who worship him are allowed into his club and everybody else goes to hell.

There you go again. Spreading fear. Worship or go to hell.
There you go again. Spreading division. Only those in my club will win.

I want nothing to do with a religion which seeks to condemn those who do not believe.

No kind deity would exlcude non believers. A benevolent deity would welcome all.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: Hi Joe, You ask... xxxxx "So what are the consequences? What is the punishment is to be feared? They will lose out big time? How?" xxxxx Those who choose to be their own mini-gods will know the absence of the One True God. That's what he tells us in his word. He's no dictator. He will not insist that everybody follows him. This is what free will is all about. He won't insist that every human he loves spend eternity with him. He has withdrawn himself from an area/state/part of his creation. And that means that every God is, is also withdrawn. So... God is Love. Farewell to love. God is light... truth... the way... life. Farewell to all this. No love, no light. The absence of all the goodness that is God. That sounds like hell, Joe.[/p][/quote]So what you are saying is that god is that selfish, that immature and that egotistical that only those who worship him are allowed into his club and everybody else goes to hell. There you go again. Spreading fear. Worship or go to hell. There you go again. Spreading division. Only those in my club will win. I want nothing to do with a religion which seeks to condemn those who do not believe. No kind deity would exlcude non believers. A benevolent deity would welcome all. Joseph Yossarian

8:44am Wed 27 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

Revkev wrote:
Nostradamous wrote: There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there. You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books -------------------- --- Kevin which religion would that be then?,it sounds very much like the one i was taught at school,you are a very presumptuos man you know.
Hi Nosti It probably is the one you were brought up with. I was certainly brought up with it. The experience was always full of fear and trying my best to please a terrible God, and not succeeding. I stopped going to church when I was 19, when I left home to work away. I didn't become a Christian until I was 28, when I went back to the bible, during a low part of my life, and found this incredibly loving God full of amazing grace. Why do you say I am a very presumptuous man?
Kevin it deffinately is the CoE religion,i wouldnt say that it ever frightened me, as even now i do believe that we all should have an healthy fear of God,meaning like the fear you would have from a Father who has laid down some ground rules,respectfull but not scared to death because of him.
As in all things you did get a certain teacher who did lean on the hell fire bit a bit to much,but thats life i would say.
I stopped going to church , very much to my mums dismay when i could make up my own mind as to what i could do or not do.
One day a while after, i was speaking to a friend of mine who asked me if i still went to church,i said no i didnt,he asked me if i was still an interested person in religous thinking,i said i was to which he invited me to a bible study being done by the Jehovahs witnesses,wasnt all that keen to be honest so i declined,our paths met again some years later and he still was connected to te JWs he again asked me to have a bible study,ok i said i will,that was when i was 31,i had several studies, and found studying the bible in the direction i was being pointed was in fact the trurh,the reall bible story,the warnings against stuff that i took for granted as being taught as true was blatantly obvious,but after a while i again fell away and stopped taking studies or visiting the Kingdom hall,but the story of the bible never left me,Gods purpose for us all never went away from me.my love for Jesus grew stronger,so a couple of years ago i decided myself to go back and continue my studies,to be honest i am the worlds greatest doubting Thomas because i am still in denial myself about being baptised into the JWs congegation,as it is a very important step and promise make.
Long winded i know Kevin but it brings me to answer your main reply question,why do i think you are presumptous,well my belief is this,there is not a single person on earth who can tell themselves or anyone else that they are ok with God and know for certain that they are on ther way to there so called Heaven,ok i know your going to throw all sorts of stuff thats written about what apostles say we have to do to be saved and all that,but it is wrong thinking to say that i am saved,the born again crew ram that down everyone they touch and you are the same,setting yourself up as god,telling people and yourself they are ok with Jesus,Kevin only Jesus really knows who's ok with him and no one else,Jesus will do the choosing here as his father gave him the power to do so,but many will call out in his name,and he will say sorry i never knew you,i hope he knows you Kevin and everyone else for that matter,but you and no one else can state the he does for sure know you and that you sit well with him,you can believe he does but you cannot be so sure,that is why i say you are presumptous.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nostradamous[/bold] wrote: There is religion that simply dangles you over the pit of hell and keeps you there. You know not whether you are right with God or still in the bad books -------------------- --- Kevin which religion would that be then?,it sounds very much like the one i was taught at school,you are a very presumptuos man you know.[/p][/quote]Hi Nosti It probably is the one you were brought up with. I was certainly brought up with it. The experience was always full of fear and trying my best to please a terrible God, and not succeeding. I stopped going to church when I was 19, when I left home to work away. I didn't become a Christian until I was 28, when I went back to the bible, during a low part of my life, and found this incredibly loving God full of amazing grace. Why do you say I am a very presumptuous man?[/p][/quote]Kevin it deffinately is the CoE religion,i wouldnt say that it ever frightened me, as even now i do believe that we all should have an healthy fear of God,meaning like the fear you would have from a Father who has laid down some ground rules,respectfull but not scared to death because of him. As in all things you did get a certain teacher who did lean on the hell fire bit a bit to much,but thats life i would say. I stopped going to church , very much to my mums dismay when i could make up my own mind as to what i could do or not do. One day a while after, i was speaking to a friend of mine who asked me if i still went to church,i said no i didnt,he asked me if i was still an interested person in religous thinking,i said i was to which he invited me to a bible study being done by the Jehovahs witnesses,wasnt all that keen to be honest so i declined,our paths met again some years later and he still was connected to te JWs he again asked me to have a bible study,ok i said i will,that was when i was 31,i had several studies, and found studying the bible in the direction i was being pointed was in fact the trurh,the reall bible story,the warnings against stuff that i took for granted as being taught as true was blatantly obvious,but after a while i again fell away and stopped taking studies or visiting the Kingdom hall,but the story of the bible never left me,Gods purpose for us all never went away from me.my love for Jesus grew stronger,so a couple of years ago i decided myself to go back and continue my studies,to be honest i am the worlds greatest doubting Thomas because i am still in denial myself about being baptised into the JWs congegation,as it is a very important step and promise make. Long winded i know Kevin but it brings me to answer your main reply question,why do i think you are presumptous,well my belief is this,there is not a single person on earth who can tell themselves or anyone else that they are ok with God and know for certain that they are on ther way to there so called Heaven,ok i know your going to throw all sorts of stuff thats written about what apostles say we have to do to be saved and all that,but it is wrong thinking to say that i am saved,the born again crew ram that down everyone they touch and you are the same,setting yourself up as god,telling people and yourself they are ok with Jesus,Kevin only Jesus really knows who's ok with him and no one else,Jesus will do the choosing here as his father gave him the power to do so,but many will call out in his name,and he will say sorry i never knew you,i hope he knows you Kevin and everyone else for that matter,but you and no one else can state the he does for sure know you and that you sit well with him,you can believe he does but you cannot be so sure,that is why i say you are presumptous. Nostradamous

11:49am Wed 27 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

The Atheist and the Solutionist are still both looking for the same thing every day, regardless of their individual hobbies, differences and beliefs. The Atheist and the Theist are still looking for the same Joy and the same Peace and the same Love and the same Light and the same fountain of Life and the same fountain of Bliss and the same understanding that surpasses their own individual intelligence and their own solutions every day.


.


We can't build a society, or even a foundation of a society by only focusing on these many, many, differences. We can't focus on tolerating and accommodating the thousands of differences and ignore the one most similar thing for all Humans on Earth. The result of focusing on all these differences, is simply more conflicts and ever more more expensive wars.


.


We treat the most similar, as if it is the enemy, and the differences as if it is our friend. What we really need is to turnaround, that approach one hundred per cent.


.


What we need is to build on a foundation that is firm, a foundation that is strong, a foundation that is the same for everyone on Earth, not just some.


.


We Breathe, and I cannot think of any stronger or more equal foundation for Life, Unity and Peace than that.


.


It's up to us, not God. We Humans create the bloody wars and divisive conflicts, not God. We Humans, create the climate of fear, not God. In my opinion, religious leaders needs to spend a little time uncreating a few things. Various Myths, Legends and unproven Campfire tales would be a very good place start.


.


We have created some very cruel and expensive Solutions, not God. Don't blame God for the fear. God didn't make fear, man is the creator of his own individual fear, not God.


.


Perfection is Perfect forever, therefore, it does not have or require any Solution.


.


What Perfection requires, is a Pioneer who will discover it. Not another Solutionist.
The Atheist and the Solutionist are still both looking for the same thing every day, regardless of their individual hobbies, differences and beliefs. The Atheist and the Theist are still looking for the same Joy and the same Peace and the same Love and the same Light and the same fountain of Life and the same fountain of Bliss and the same understanding that surpasses their own individual intelligence and their own solutions every day. . We can't build a society, or even a foundation of a society by only focusing on these many, many, differences. We can't focus on tolerating and accommodating the thousands of differences and ignore the one most similar thing for all Humans on Earth. The result of focusing on all these differences, is simply more conflicts and ever more more expensive wars. . We treat the most similar, as if it is the enemy, and the differences as if it is our friend. What we really need is to turnaround, that approach one hundred per cent. . What we need is to build on a foundation that is firm, a foundation that is strong, a foundation that is the same for everyone on Earth, not just some. . We Breathe, and I cannot think of any stronger or more equal foundation for Life, Unity and Peace than that. . It's up to us, not God. We Humans create the bloody wars and divisive conflicts, not God. We Humans, create the climate of fear, not God. In my opinion, religious leaders needs to spend a little time uncreating a few things. Various Myths, Legends and unproven Campfire tales would be a very good place start. . We have created some very cruel and expensive Solutions, not God. Don't blame God for the fear. God didn't make fear, man is the creator of his own individual fear, not God. . Perfection is Perfect forever, therefore, it does not have or require any Solution. . What Perfection requires, is a Pioneer who will discover it. Not another Solutionist. Ken Shuffles

11:54am Wed 27 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

We all look outside of us for Heaven because that is what we all are trained by man to do.
We all look outside of us for Heaven because that is what we all are trained by man to do. Ken Shuffles

12:06pm Wed 27 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Before we were all trained to look somewhere else outside of us for our Heaven, we Humans were all fullfilled by it.


We Humans only need to Breathe for Heaven to become a possibility for us. Once that is accepted, All the Joy of Heaven becomes our Reality.


.


Nobody has to live a different way. Nobody has to give up anything for it.
Nobody has to change.
Before we were all trained to look somewhere else outside of us for our Heaven, we Humans were all fullfilled by it. We Humans only need to Breathe for Heaven to become a possibility for us. Once that is accepted, All the Joy of Heaven becomes our Reality. . Nobody has to live a different way. Nobody has to give up anything for it. Nobody has to change. Ken Shuffles

12:25pm Wed 27 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Everyone has the power to appreciate something.Everyone has the power to accept something.
Everyone has the power to feel something.

We could if we wanted to, appreciate and accept and feel something that is worthy of being appreciated. Something that is worthy of being accepted, and something that is very worthy of being felt.


.


A Breath.
Everyone has the power to appreciate something.Everyone has the power to accept something. Everyone has the power to feel something. We could if we wanted to, appreciate and accept and feel something that is worthy of being appreciated. Something that is worthy of being accepted, and something that is very worthy of being felt. . A Breath. Ken Shuffles

2:15pm Wed 27 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

In every country on Earth, What is the budget set aside for Peace on Earth?


.



In every country on Earth, What is the size of the Budget men have set aside for conflict, carnage, and the symptoms of Hell ?


Don't rush to google it, but I think you will find the budget for Peace on Earth has remained at a steady and constant **** zero Kevin.


.


The Archbishop, the Pope and all the kings men have done absolutely nothing other than support and plan and manage billions of our collective resources for the symptoms of conflict on Earth, and zero funding, zero planning, zero policy making has always been the norm when it comes to budgeting for Peace on Earth.


.


We pay columnists a fortune to write and talk about corruption, carnage, conflict on Earth.
In every country on Earth, What is the budget set aside for Peace on Earth? . In every country on Earth, What is the size of the Budget men have set aside for conflict, carnage, and the symptoms of Hell ? Don't rush to google it, but I think you will find the budget for Peace on Earth has remained at a steady and constant **** zero Kevin. . The Archbishop, the Pope and all the kings men have done absolutely nothing other than support and plan and manage billions of our collective resources for the symptoms of conflict on Earth, and zero funding, zero planning, zero policy making has always been the norm when it comes to budgeting for Peace on Earth. . We pay columnists a fortune to write and talk about corruption, carnage, conflict on Earth. Ken Shuffles

2:26pm Wed 27 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

When you were a practicing Vicar you must have had the responsibility to manage budgets for things.


.


In your long career, were you ever asked, to set aside any amount of fiscal resource, for Peace on Earth ?
When you were a practicing Vicar you must have had the responsibility to manage budgets for things. . In your long career, were you ever asked, to set aside any amount of fiscal resource, for Peace on Earth ? Ken Shuffles

2:47pm Wed 27 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

99.99% of the worlds wealth is set aside by managers, managing the symptoms of Hell on Earth, and some start to wonder what are the possible causes of not one single budget for Peace on Earth this side of the biblical.


.


We continue to have a massive, VAST AND HUGE budget for conflicts, carnage and wars on Earth, and not one Politician or Church Leader has ever opposed or challenged this arrangment with a Budget for Peace on Earth ever in the history of religions.
99.99% of the worlds wealth is set aside by managers, managing the symptoms of Hell on Earth, and some start to wonder what are the possible causes of not one single budget for Peace on Earth this side of the biblical. . We continue to have a massive, VAST AND HUGE budget for conflicts, carnage and wars on Earth, and not one Politician or Church Leader has ever opposed or challenged this arrangment with a Budget for Peace on Earth ever in the history of religions. Ken Shuffles

2:50pm Wed 27 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Only in our wildest, darkest Coma could that ever happen Kev.
Only in our wildest, darkest Coma could that ever happen Kev. Ken Shuffles

5:41pm Wed 27 Jul 11

Revkev says...

Hi Graham,
If there other folk on other planets, no doubt the Creator will have made just, wise and loving provisions for them.
Mind you, I reckon he's probably got his plate full with us lot on Planet Earth.
Hi Graham, If there other folk on other planets, no doubt the Creator will have made just, wise and loving provisions for them. Mind you, I reckon he's probably got his plate full with us lot on Planet Earth. Revkev

10:54am Thu 28 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

The Only thing that God would be able to offer folk on this planet, is The Most Beautiful feeling on Earth.
The Only thing that God would be able to offer folk on this planet, is The Most Beautiful feeling on Earth. Ken Shuffles

11:10am Thu 28 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

There is one feeling in man which is always just, wise and loving and then Someone comes, who is kind enough, patient enough, to point out to us, our relationship with that feeling.
There is one feeling in man which is always just, wise and loving and then Someone comes, who is kind enough, patient enough, to point out to us, our relationship with that feeling. Ken Shuffles

11:18am Thu 28 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

When we wake up to The Most Beautiful feeling on Earth, that is the day, there will be Peace on Earth.


.


Peace on Earth, cannot begin, will not begin for Humans until the Most Beautiful and Fulfilling feeling you have ever known comes flooding in.
When we wake up to The Most Beautiful feeling on Earth, that is the day, there will be Peace on Earth. . Peace on Earth, cannot begin, will not begin for Humans until the Most Beautiful and Fulfilling feeling you have ever known comes flooding in. Ken Shuffles

7:30am Fri 29 Jul 11

Nostradamous says...

Cant argue with those beautifull words Ken,and all you have wrote and more will happen when Jesus Christ takes up his throne and begins his rule over the earth,then the graves will give up there dead and suffering will be no more,another pointer as to who rules the earth and all that is in it at this point in time,good stuff mate.
Cant argue with those beautifull words Ken,and all you have wrote and more will happen when Jesus Christ takes up his throne and begins his rule over the earth,then the graves will give up there dead and suffering will be no more,another pointer as to who rules the earth and all that is in it at this point in time,good stuff mate. Nostradamous

11:30am Fri 29 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

When we are synchronised with that experience, that beautiful magnificent feeling, that joy, that understanding, that true experience of Life which is a part of you and not a part of some dream, or a part of something relative to a part of something else.


Let's not over god the pudding,That Perfect and Beautiful part of us, that part of our selves which is, was and always will be, our true identity and our true reality is what we need to synch up with.
When we are synchronised with that experience, that beautiful magnificent feeling, that joy, that understanding, that true experience of Life which is a part of you and not a part of some dream, or a part of something relative to a part of something else. Let's not over god the pudding,That Perfect and Beautiful part of us, that part of our selves which is, was and always will be, our true identity and our true reality is what we need to synch up with. Ken Shuffles

12:04pm Fri 29 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Life is not made of Earth. It is not even a particle of Earth and it is not ruled by anything that is made out of Earth. Earth is the subject of Life. Life is not the subject of This Earth.


.


The one you are designed to encounter, is the Monarch of Life.
Life is not made of Earth. It is not even a particle of Earth and it is not ruled by anything that is made out of Earth. Earth is the subject of Life. Life is not the subject of This Earth. . The one you are designed to encounter, is the Monarch of Life. Ken Shuffles

12:19pm Fri 29 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Only those who feel ready to wake up will awaken. Those with the courage to volunteer themselves. Otherwise, the old dead would just end up the new robots and captives of some spectacular intervention.


.


There is no freedom when we are bound by a consequence. Freedom is a feeling not a circumstance.
Only those who feel ready to wake up will awaken. Those with the courage to volunteer themselves. Otherwise, the old dead would just end up the new robots and captives of some spectacular intervention. . There is no freedom when we are bound by a consequence. Freedom is a feeling not a circumstance. Ken Shuffles

12:26pm Fri 29 Jul 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Life is made of feeling it is not an event or a series of events. Life is that feeling which is never bound or touched by events and no matter what the circumstances are, That feeling of Life is always, always, always, free to come and go.
Life is made of feeling it is not an event or a series of events. Life is that feeling which is never bound or touched by events and no matter what the circumstances are, That feeling of Life is always, always, always, free to come and go. Ken Shuffles

11:09pm Sun 31 Jul 11

Graham Hartley says...

A creator with the abilities ascribed will be able simultaneously to hear and answer the prayers of all on this planet and on all others, so will not be fully occupied with this planet's pleas.
A creator with the abilities ascribed will be able simultaneously to hear and answer the prayers of all on this planet and on all others, so will not be fully occupied with this planet's pleas. Graham Hartley

12:52pm Tue 2 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

Actually Graham,

Not one plea from the Heart of Man has ever gone unfulfilled or unheard. Not one has ever gone astray. Not one has ever been lost, and not one simple plea has ever been abandoned or left unanswered.


.


Only One Prayer, One Plea is truly, authentically, original to us, and we humans all come complete with one plea and one promise. Unlike other pleas and other promises which can be broken, this one contract is unshakable and is actually being addressed before we even get round to asking the question.


.


It's the same on whatever planet you find your self on. I have no idea why.
Actually Graham, Not one plea from the Heart of Man has ever gone unfulfilled or unheard. Not one has ever gone astray. Not one has ever been lost, and not one simple plea has ever been abandoned or left unanswered. . Only One Prayer, One Plea is truly, authentically, original to us, and we humans all come complete with one plea and one promise. Unlike other pleas and other promises which can be broken, this one contract is unshakable and is actually being addressed before we even get round to asking the question. . It's the same on whatever planet you find your self on. I have no idea why. Ken Shuffles

1:07pm Tue 2 Aug 11

Ken Shuffles says...

In this process of Your Life each and every detail is Beautiful. Also there, in this process of Your Life there is One Promise you silently, secretly, wordlessly, make to your Self which is not made to be left unfulfilled.


.


Other Promises may be left waiting and unfulfilled for ages to come, but not the one secret, silent one you made to your Self.
In this process of Your Life each and every detail is Beautiful. Also there, in this process of Your Life there is One Promise you silently, secretly, wordlessly, make to your Self which is not made to be left unfulfilled. . Other Promises may be left waiting and unfulfilled for ages to come, but not the one secret, silent one you made to your Self. Ken Shuffles

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