Medics make two brilliant decisions

5:30pm Saturday 30th June 2012 in Opinion Photograph of the Author By Rev Kevin Logan, Lancashire Telegraph columnist

In a world where leadership continues to sink to dark depths – celebrity tax fiddlers fiddle, politicians become poly-lie-tians and cartoonists draw bankers in robber eye-masks and uniforms with black arrows – it’s wonderful this weekend to celebrate two glimmers of hope.

I know I’ve given medics a rough time recently about ‘unofficial euthanasia’ and the Liverpool Care Pathway, but this morning I’m delighted to pat them on the back for two brilliant decisions.

The British Medical Association gave full support to the independent counselling for women who are considering an abortion, separate from the abortion providers, as at present.

This is great news ahead of the Government consultation on the issue, and encourages us to think seriously about increasing women’s unbiased freedom of choice.

Secondly, the BMA will continue to oppose assisted suicide after rejecting an attempt to neutralise medical opposition.

In doing this they rejected the profession’s own official voice, the General Medical Journal, which called on doctors to end their opposition to assisted dying, as this column highlighted a fortnight ago.

Now, we can pray that our Coalition Government will see the light and act upon BMA leadership. No doubt we’ll be able to encourage them once the consultation opens. Watch this space.

  • Though I do still strongly agree with the professors who label the Liverpool Care Pathway as ‘back-door euthanasia’ influenced by economic medical factors, it does have redeeming features.

In cases where death can be proved to be definitely imminent, the pathway does stop unhelpful and painful medical intrusion.

It provides well-tested, best-practice nursing care for a peaceful end, and patients are always offered first-class spiritual support.

My thanks to my Lancaster ‘correspondent Stephen’ for these balanced additions.

Comments (52)

10:10pm Sat 30 Jun 12

mavrick says...

I don't know what gives you the right to voice your own biased opinions on these matters as if you speak with some authority. It is a persons right to make such decisions for themselves, who are you to judge? It is innocuous religious bigots like you that have turned thousands of people of attending churches.
You took an easy job in the church where all you had to do was get on your high horse every week and that was your job done, bills paid, car paid, house included, not bad for telling other people some ludicrous story about what someone allegedly said over two thousand years ago. Sorry Kev you were a failed politician for the liberals and you are still failing. Perhaps a long period of silence from you would help matters.
I don't know what gives you the right to voice your own biased opinions on these matters as if you speak with some authority. It is a persons right to make such decisions for themselves, who are you to judge? It is innocuous religious bigots like you that have turned thousands of people of attending churches. You took an easy job in the church where all you had to do was get on your high horse every week and that was your job done, bills paid, car paid, house included, not bad for telling other people some ludicrous story about what someone allegedly said over two thousand years ago. Sorry Kev you were a failed politician for the liberals and you are still failing. Perhaps a long period of silence from you would help matters. mavrick

12:11am Sun 1 Jul 12

Graham Hartley says...

If the proclamation of eternal life is true then we expect much rejoicing at times of imminent death, yet this occurs only rarely.
If the proclamation of eternal life is true then we expect much rejoicing at times of imminent death, yet this occurs only rarely. Graham Hartley

10:23am Mon 2 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Get good at feeling your desire to feel thankful. The events of Death and Birth are not relevent to the beginning, or the ending, or the existence of Life.
Get good at feeling your desire to feel thankful. The events of Death and Birth are not relevent to the beginning, or the ending, or the existence of Life. Ken Shuffles

10:26am Mon 2 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Kevin, you lambast all types of celebrity failures other than the religious celebrity failure.
Kevin, you lambast all types of celebrity failures other than the religious celebrity failure. Ken Shuffles

5:07pm Mon 2 Jul 12

Revkev says...

mavrick wrote:
I don't know what gives you the right to voice your own biased opinions on these matters as if you speak with some authority. It is a persons right to make such decisions for themselves, who are you to judge? It is innocuous religious bigots like you that have turned thousands of people of attending churches.
You took an easy job in the church where all you had to do was get on your high horse every week and that was your job done, bills paid, car paid, house included, not bad for telling other people some ludicrous story about what someone allegedly said over two thousand years ago. Sorry Kev you were a failed politician for the liberals and you are still failing. Perhaps a long period of silence from you would help matters.
Hi mavrick,
Don't we all have a right to voice our opinion?
Are we not all allowed to speak with authority from our own convictions?
This is normal life, isn't mavrick? This is democracy.
[quote][p][bold]mavrick[/bold] wrote: I don't know what gives you the right to voice your own biased opinions on these matters as if you speak with some authority. It is a persons right to make such decisions for themselves, who are you to judge? It is innocuous religious bigots like you that have turned thousands of people of attending churches. You took an easy job in the church where all you had to do was get on your high horse every week and that was your job done, bills paid, car paid, house included, not bad for telling other people some ludicrous story about what someone allegedly said over two thousand years ago. Sorry Kev you were a failed politician for the liberals and you are still failing. Perhaps a long period of silence from you would help matters.[/p][/quote]Hi mavrick, Don't we all have a right to voice our opinion? Are we not all allowed to speak with authority from our own convictions? This is normal life, isn't mavrick? This is democracy. Revkev

5:14pm Mon 2 Jul 12

Revkev says...

mavrick wrote:
I don't know what gives you the right to voice your own biased opinions on these matters as if you speak with some authority. It is a persons right to make such decisions for themselves, who are you to judge? It is innocuous religious bigots like you that have turned thousands of people of attending churches.
You took an easy job in the church where all you had to do was get on your high horse every week and that was your job done, bills paid, car paid, house included, not bad for telling other people some ludicrous story about what someone allegedly said over two thousand years ago. Sorry Kev you were a failed politician for the liberals and you are still failing. Perhaps a long period of silence from you would help matters.
One more thing, mavrick...
Would it be appropriate for me to call you a bigot because you views disagree with mine?
Of course not.
You have your opinion.
You believe the church is cushy number (which shows you've no experience or knowledge of your subject). You think the Bible is and, presumably God and Jesus, is all made up.
.
I fully respect your right to have these views and to express opinions about them.
.
You're not a bigot, mavrick. Merely an individual who has views different to mine.
.
Would you agree?
[quote][p][bold]mavrick[/bold] wrote: I don't know what gives you the right to voice your own biased opinions on these matters as if you speak with some authority. It is a persons right to make such decisions for themselves, who are you to judge? It is innocuous religious bigots like you that have turned thousands of people of attending churches. You took an easy job in the church where all you had to do was get on your high horse every week and that was your job done, bills paid, car paid, house included, not bad for telling other people some ludicrous story about what someone allegedly said over two thousand years ago. Sorry Kev you were a failed politician for the liberals and you are still failing. Perhaps a long period of silence from you would help matters.[/p][/quote]One more thing, mavrick... Would it be appropriate for me to call you a bigot because you views disagree with mine? Of course not. You have your opinion. You believe the church is cushy number (which shows you've no experience or knowledge of your subject). You think the Bible is and, presumably God and Jesus, is all made up. . I fully respect your right to have these views and to express opinions about them. . You're not a bigot, mavrick. Merely an individual who has views different to mine. . Would you agree? Revkev

5:45pm Mon 2 Jul 12

Revkev says...

Graham Hartley wrote:
If the proclamation of eternal life is true then we expect much rejoicing at times of imminent death, yet this occurs only rarely.
Hi Graham,
Nice to back in the debate, having had a three-week holiday.
Having ministered to the dying for the last forty years, you seem to be about right in your analysis of Christian deaths. Not many are jumping for joy as they exit this life for the next.
.
That stated, and as you acknowledge, there are the exceptions and I have been very privileged to have been involved.
.
My first wife's journey to death was from my perspective, horrific, painful and I cried more times than I could count, sometimes with her and often outside the sick room.
.
The hope of a new life to come and meeting her Lord face to face buoyed her up immensely, and people who came to visit left feeling much better than when they had come.
Her relationship with God shone through the agony and the wasting body, and it was undeniable that she was at peace with approaching death and promised resurrection.
.
Linda was an example of how many Christian cope as they prepare to exit this life for the next.
Yes, it's hard work.
No, they're not jumping for joy on their death beds.
However, there is that peace and presence that passes all human understanding.
.
On many occasions, I have seen much evidence that God turns up to help his beloved people into his eternal presence.
.
And let's remember, that offer of peace and his presence is open to everyone of us in this life, you included Graham.
.
You discover how much God loves you when you see what he did in his son on the cross of Calvary.
[quote][p][bold]Graham Hartley[/bold] wrote: If the proclamation of eternal life is true then we expect much rejoicing at times of imminent death, yet this occurs only rarely.[/p][/quote]Hi Graham, Nice to back in the debate, having had a three-week holiday. Having ministered to the dying for the last forty years, you seem to be about right in your analysis of Christian deaths. Not many are jumping for joy as they exit this life for the next. . That stated, and as you acknowledge, there are the exceptions and I have been very privileged to have been involved. . My first wife's journey to death was from my perspective, horrific, painful and I cried more times than I could count, sometimes with her and often outside the sick room. . The hope of a new life to come and meeting her Lord face to face buoyed her up immensely, and people who came to visit left feeling much better than when they had come. Her relationship with God shone through the agony and the wasting body, and it was undeniable that she was at peace with approaching death and promised resurrection. . Linda was an example of how many Christian cope as they prepare to exit this life for the next. Yes, it's hard work. No, they're not jumping for joy on their death beds. However, there is that peace and presence that passes all human understanding. . On many occasions, I have seen much evidence that God turns up to help his beloved people into his eternal presence. . And let's remember, that offer of peace and his presence is open to everyone of us in this life, you included Graham. . You discover how much God loves you when you see what he did in his son on the cross of Calvary. Revkev

5:56pm Mon 2 Jul 12

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
Kevin, you lambast all types of celebrity failures other than the religious celebrity failure.
Hi Ken,
You should know, as a regular column reader, that religious 'celebrities' are not immune.
.
I can remember taking my former bosses to task on a number occasions over the past dozen years.
.
Indeed, I'm not immune to failure myself, as a mere columnist, as the 'rider' to this week's effort shows.
I didn't balance too well my criticism of the Liverpool Care Pathway, and had to make necessary corrections this week.
.
We're all in the same boat, Ken. We all make bloopers from time to time, yourself included.
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Kevin, you lambast all types of celebrity failures other than the religious celebrity failure.[/p][/quote]Hi Ken, You should know, as a regular column reader, that religious 'celebrities' are not immune. . I can remember taking my former bosses to task on a number occasions over the past dozen years. . Indeed, I'm not immune to failure myself, as a mere columnist, as the 'rider' to this week's effort shows. I didn't balance too well my criticism of the Liverpool Care Pathway, and had to make necessary corrections this week. . We're all in the same boat, Ken. We all make bloopers from time to time, yourself included. Revkev

6:05pm Mon 2 Jul 12

Revkev says...

mavrick wrote:
I don't know what gives you the right to voice your own biased opinions on these matters as if you speak with some authority. It is a persons right to make such decisions for themselves, who are you to judge? It is innocuous religious bigots like you that have turned thousands of people of attending churches.
You took an easy job in the church where all you had to do was get on your high horse every week and that was your job done, bills paid, car paid, house included, not bad for telling other people some ludicrous story about what someone allegedly said over two thousand years ago. Sorry Kev you were a failed politician for the liberals and you are still failing. Perhaps a long period of silence from you would help matters.
Just an odd thought, mavrick, to be sure I was, as you say, a politician, many years ago.
.
I represented the old South Ward (Baxenden and Barnfield) for three years for the liberals before re-organisation in 1972. I decided not to stand again because I was going off to theological college in London.
.
You seem to think this contributes to be me being "failed politician".
Could you explain what you mean?
[quote][p][bold]mavrick[/bold] wrote: I don't know what gives you the right to voice your own biased opinions on these matters as if you speak with some authority. It is a persons right to make such decisions for themselves, who are you to judge? It is innocuous religious bigots like you that have turned thousands of people of attending churches. You took an easy job in the church where all you had to do was get on your high horse every week and that was your job done, bills paid, car paid, house included, not bad for telling other people some ludicrous story about what someone allegedly said over two thousand years ago. Sorry Kev you were a failed politician for the liberals and you are still failing. Perhaps a long period of silence from you would help matters.[/p][/quote]Just an odd thought, mavrick, to be sure I was, as you say, a politician, many years ago. . I represented the old South Ward (Baxenden and Barnfield) for three years for the liberals before re-organisation in 1972. I decided not to stand again because I was going off to theological college in London. . You seem to think this contributes to be me being "failed politician". Could you explain what you mean? Revkev

12:11am Tue 3 Jul 12

Graham Hartley says...

Revkev wrote:
Graham Hartley wrote:
If the proclamation of eternal life is true then we expect much rejoicing at times of imminent death, yet this occurs only rarely.
Hi Graham,
Nice to back in the debate, having had a three-week holiday.
Having ministered to the dying for the last forty years, you seem to be about right in your analysis of Christian deaths. Not many are jumping for joy as they exit this life for the next.
.
That stated, and as you acknowledge, there are the exceptions and I have been very privileged to have been involved.
.
My first wife's journey to death was from my perspective, horrific, painful and I cried more times than I could count, sometimes with her and often outside the sick room.
.
The hope of a new life to come and meeting her Lord face to face buoyed her up immensely, and people who came to visit left feeling much better than when they had come.
Her relationship with God shone through the agony and the wasting body, and it was undeniable that she was at peace with approaching death and promised resurrection.
.
Linda was an example of how many Christian cope as they prepare to exit this life for the next.
Yes, it's hard work.
No, they're not jumping for joy on their death beds.
However, there is that peace and presence that passes all human understanding.
.
On many occasions, I have seen much evidence that God turns up to help his beloved people into his eternal presence.
.
And let's remember, that offer of peace and his presence is open to everyone of us in this life, you included Graham.
.
You discover how much God loves you when you see what he did in his son on the cross of Calvary.
If parochialism is permitted, I can mention my neighbour Major Snips (an anagram of the given name) who told me that death from cancer would be painless. Such trust in medical science was well-placed, if the evidence of this person's demeanour when approaching death was a correct indicator of inner state. No mention of eternal life or rapture; just an apparently-effective concern with personal welfare.

Major Snips died many years ago, without telling me before his death (or after it) any more about the efficacy of this approach to death.

What troubles me - as a professional doubter- is that for every case Reverend Kevin can describe in which a person close to death is buoyed up by the certainty of eternal life, another case can be found in which there is expressed no such certainty and yet death is approached with the equanimity of Major Snips.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Graham Hartley[/bold] wrote: If the proclamation of eternal life is true then we expect much rejoicing at times of imminent death, yet this occurs only rarely.[/p][/quote]Hi Graham, Nice to back in the debate, having had a three-week holiday. Having ministered to the dying for the last forty years, you seem to be about right in your analysis of Christian deaths. Not many are jumping for joy as they exit this life for the next. . That stated, and as you acknowledge, there are the exceptions and I have been very privileged to have been involved. . My first wife's journey to death was from my perspective, horrific, painful and I cried more times than I could count, sometimes with her and often outside the sick room. . The hope of a new life to come and meeting her Lord face to face buoyed her up immensely, and people who came to visit left feeling much better than when they had come. Her relationship with God shone through the agony and the wasting body, and it was undeniable that she was at peace with approaching death and promised resurrection. . Linda was an example of how many Christian cope as they prepare to exit this life for the next. Yes, it's hard work. No, they're not jumping for joy on their death beds. However, there is that peace and presence that passes all human understanding. . On many occasions, I have seen much evidence that God turns up to help his beloved people into his eternal presence. . And let's remember, that offer of peace and his presence is open to everyone of us in this life, you included Graham. . You discover how much God loves you when you see what he did in his son on the cross of Calvary.[/p][/quote]If parochialism is permitted, I can mention my neighbour Major Snips (an anagram of the given name) who told me that death from cancer would be painless. Such trust in medical science was well-placed, if the evidence of this person's demeanour when approaching death was a correct indicator of inner state. No mention of eternal life or rapture; just an apparently-effective concern with personal welfare. Major Snips died many years ago, without telling me before his death (or after it) any more about the efficacy of this approach to death. What troubles me - as a professional doubter- is that for every case Reverend Kevin can describe in which a person close to death is buoyed up by the certainty of eternal life, another case can be found in which there is expressed no such certainty and yet death is approached with the equanimity of Major Snips. Graham Hartley

10:41am Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Revkev wrote:
Ken Shuffles wrote: Kevin, you lambast all types of celebrity failures other than the religious celebrity failure.
Hi Ken, You should know, as a regular column reader, that religious 'celebrities' are not immune. . I can remember taking my former bosses to task on a number occasions over the past dozen years. . Indeed, I'm not immune to failure myself, as a mere columnist, as the 'rider' to this week's effort shows. I didn't balance too well my criticism of the Liverpool Care Pathway, and had to make necessary corrections this week. . We're all in the same boat, Ken. We all make bloopers from time to time, yourself included.
I agree Kevin, but if the best of us and the worst of us, are not immune to failure and triumph then what progress towardS peace on Earth will promoting any religion make.?
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Kevin, you lambast all types of celebrity failures other than the religious celebrity failure.[/p][/quote]Hi Ken, You should know, as a regular column reader, that religious 'celebrities' are not immune. . I can remember taking my former bosses to task on a number occasions over the past dozen years. . Indeed, I'm not immune to failure myself, as a mere columnist, as the 'rider' to this week's effort shows. I didn't balance too well my criticism of the Liverpool Care Pathway, and had to make necessary corrections this week. . We're all in the same boat, Ken. We all make bloopers from time to time, yourself included.[/p][/quote]I agree Kevin, but if the best of us and the worst of us, are not immune to failure and triumph then what progress towardS peace on Earth will promoting any religion make.? Ken Shuffles

10:44am Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

There are some badly depraved Christians who appear to be Holy and successful and some kind ones who appear to all the world to be a failure.
There are some badly depraved Christians who appear to be Holy and successful and some kind ones who appear to all the world to be a failure. Ken Shuffles

10:50am Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Why are People so obssessed about the rights and wrongs of 'how to' approach Death ? if they have been given Eternal Life.
Why are People so obssessed about the rights and wrongs of 'how to' approach Death ? if they have been given Eternal Life. Ken Shuffles

10:53am Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Eternal Life, is a constant certainty.
Eternal Life, is a constant certainty. Ken Shuffles

11:19am Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

There is an Eternal Peace and an Eternal Joy and an Eternal Understanding of The Life Eternal, which surpasses all our wildest dreams about our births and our deaths.


.


We will get out of the feeling machine whatever need we put into the feeling machine. If we need to feel Love, we will get Love, if we need to feel Hate we will get hate. If we feel the need to Know, we will get the Knowledge.


.


We can only be what we are, and what we ALL should be is a Human Being that is proud to be Human. We can all be very proud of who we are and what we can accomplish by feeling.


.


You can be proud to be A Feeling Machine.
There is an Eternal Peace and an Eternal Joy and an Eternal Understanding of The Life Eternal, which surpasses all our wildest dreams about our births and our deaths. . We will get out of the feeling machine whatever need we put into the feeling machine. If we need to feel Love, we will get Love, if we need to feel Hate we will get hate. If we feel the need to Know, we will get the Knowledge. . We can only be what we are, and what we ALL should be is a Human Being that is proud to be Human. We can all be very proud of who we are and what we can accomplish by feeling. . You can be proud to be A Feeling Machine. Ken Shuffles

11:26am Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

There are no upper limits placed on what a person can feel. Choosing what we most need to feel, has been left entirely up to us.
There are no upper limits placed on what a person can feel. Choosing what we most need to feel, has been left entirely up to us. Ken Shuffles

11:32am Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Whether it was God or Evolution or both, Human Beings have something in them that likes to feel very thankful.
Whether it was God or Evolution or both, Human Beings have something in them that likes to feel very thankful. Ken Shuffles

11:58am Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Religion teaches us that feeling thankful is too much to ask of your self.
Religion teaches us that feeling thankful is too much to ask of your self. Ken Shuffles

2:11pm Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

The baddest two decisions that Christianity ever made was that God made suffering mandatory. If the suffering of mankind is mandatory, then the God of mankind is just another God of cruelty. There should be ZERO tolerance for cruelty, as far as Humanity is concerned.


.


If an Atheist can enjoy the Eternal fruits of Heaven. The Eternal Joy, the Eternal Peace, the Eternal Paradise and feel the Eternal desire to feel thankful for this moment with each breath before death, then that blows all the Popes, Religions, Priests and just about every other Doctrine I can think of totally out of the water.


.


How would the Religious explain an Atheist who can enjoy the Bliss of The Infinite and all the fun of the finite at the same time ?
The baddest two decisions that Christianity ever made was that God made suffering mandatory. If the suffering of mankind is mandatory, then the God of mankind is just another God of cruelty. There should be ZERO tolerance for cruelty, as far as Humanity is concerned. . If an Atheist can enjoy the Eternal fruits of Heaven. The Eternal Joy, the Eternal Peace, the Eternal Paradise and feel the Eternal desire to feel thankful for this moment with each breath before death, then that blows all the Popes, Religions, Priests and just about every other Doctrine I can think of totally out of the water. . How would the Religious explain an Atheist who can enjoy the Bliss of The Infinite and all the fun of the finite at the same time ? Ken Shuffles

2:15pm Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

This deluded world, has been teaching us to sacrifice The FUN of one for the FUN of the other for too long in my humble opinion.
This deluded world, has been teaching us to sacrifice The FUN of one for the FUN of the other for too long in my humble opinion. Ken Shuffles

2:26pm Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Sometimes, probably because our reasoning gets convoluted whenever it is confronted with the appearance of two things like birth and death, it can take a tremendous amount of strength and courage and patience to feel thankful for the simple existence of your Self.
Sometimes, probably because our reasoning gets convoluted whenever it is confronted with the appearance of two things like birth and death, it can take a tremendous amount of strength and courage and patience to feel thankful for the simple existence of your Self. Ken Shuffles

2:31pm Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

When we accept the beauty of that simple desire we have to feel thankful, guess what! We receive the Gratitude that is Eternal, and all of it's Eternal partners show up!
When we accept the beauty of that simple desire we have to feel thankful, guess what! We receive the Gratitude that is Eternal, and all of it's Eternal partners show up! Ken Shuffles

2:38pm Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

All it takes to feel thankful, is one moment, one consciousness, one breath. Knowing what to feel with one moment, one consciousness and each breath is the ultimate thing in Mercy and Freedom.
All it takes to feel thankful, is one moment, one consciousness, one breath. Knowing what to feel with one moment, one consciousness and each breath is the ultimate thing in Mercy and Freedom. Ken Shuffles

2:42pm Tue 3 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

200K
200K Ken Shuffles

8:15pm Tue 3 Jul 12

l m h jones says...

i am sure tony nicklinson shares your views rev, http://www.guardian.
co.uk/commentisfree/
2012/jun/24/observer
-editorial-in-suppor
t-of-assisted-dying
and the impartial counselling regarding termination i really hope that means that organisations like life or skylight are not involved as they have their own agendas http://www.guardian.
co.uk/lifeandstyle/2
011/aug/02/abortion-
pregnancy-counsellin
g-found-wanting by the way women have the right to reject the offer of counselling which the bma emphasised..noting that as the NHS carry out terminations does this mean that a woman cannot be offered counselling by her own nhs gp?
i am sure tony nicklinson shares your views rev, http://www.guardian. co.uk/commentisfree/ 2012/jun/24/observer -editorial-in-suppor t-of-assisted-dying and the impartial counselling regarding termination i really hope that means that organisations like life or skylight are not involved as they have their own agendas http://www.guardian. co.uk/lifeandstyle/2 011/aug/02/abortion- pregnancy-counsellin g-found-wanting by the way women have the right to reject the offer of counselling which the bma emphasised..noting that as the NHS carry out terminations does this mean that a woman cannot be offered counselling by her own nhs gp? l m h jones

9:32am Wed 4 Jul 12

Revkev says...

Hi Ken,
You ask...
"...if the best of us and the worst of us are not immune to failure and triumph, then what progress towards peace on Earth will promoting any religion make?"
.
Jesus said, 'Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the earth.'
Jesus simply wanted to give us his peace within so that we would spread that in our lives on this earth.
In this way, Christians are supposed to be help the world to a more peaceful existence.
.
(Incidentally, those who've used or abused Christianity to wage war or crusades in Christ's name got things horribly wrong).
.
All this stated, peace on earth is a goal even beyond religion. We six billion humans are sinners and peace is never going to be possible when each of us uses our free will for our own ends.
.
You goal of peace on earth, Ken is therefore not attainable. We're here on this planet to make our peace with God.
Our primary aim is to make our peace with our Maker, and then try to be his peacemakers in his power.
Hi Ken, You ask... "...if the best of us and the worst of us are not immune to failure and triumph, then what progress towards peace on Earth will promoting any religion make?" . Jesus said, 'Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the earth.' Jesus simply wanted to give us his peace within so that we would spread that in our lives on this earth. In this way, Christians are supposed to be help the world to a more peaceful existence. . (Incidentally, those who've used or abused Christianity to wage war or crusades in Christ's name got things horribly wrong). . All this stated, peace on earth is a goal even beyond religion. We six billion humans are sinners and peace is never going to be possible when each of us uses our free will for our own ends. . You goal of peace on earth, Ken is therefore not attainable. We're here on this planet to make our peace with God. Our primary aim is to make our peace with our Maker, and then try to be his peacemakers in his power. Revkev

10:49am Wed 4 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Peace, WHILE we are HERE on Earth is attainable.


.


If Kev, you mean ceasefire flavoured peace on earth then I would agree with you - a ceasefire between wars is not peace. Peace is a feeling, and either it needs to be felt, or the greedy left wanting can fund-manage their world of birth and death without it.


To be at peace, the human psych needs to have felt the desire to be thankful, because the desire to feel thankful is the only desire that has not been created by God and the only desire that cannot be satisfied by Man.
Peace, WHILE we are HERE on Earth is attainable. . If Kev, you mean ceasefire flavoured peace on earth then I would agree with you - a ceasefire between wars is not peace. Peace is a feeling, and either it needs to be felt, or the greedy left wanting can fund-manage their world of birth and death without it. To be at peace, the human psych needs to have felt the desire to be thankful, because the desire to feel thankful is the only desire that has not been created by God and the only desire that cannot be satisfied by Man. Ken Shuffles

10:53am Wed 4 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

I urge people, to feel the peace within them that arises from Gratitude. I don't make Peace and I'm not a peacemaker. I can't make a feeling that has already been made to fit perfectly within the deepest part of each individual.
I urge people, to feel the peace within them that arises from Gratitude. I don't make Peace and I'm not a peacemaker. I can't make a feeling that has already been made to fit perfectly within the deepest part of each individual. Ken Shuffles

10:57am Wed 4 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

I have inherited Earthly logic and Heaven so that's not bad.
I have inherited Earthly logic and Heaven so that's not bad. Ken Shuffles

11:28am Wed 4 Jul 12

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
Eternal Life, is a constant certainty.
Only if you've accepted Jesus as your Saviour and Lord, says the Bible.
Only if you've made your peace with God and accepted his gift of eternal life.
.
A gift has to be accepted otherwise it just stays unclaimed and is worthless.
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Eternal Life, is a constant certainty.[/p][/quote]Only if you've accepted Jesus as your Saviour and Lord, says the Bible. Only if you've made your peace with God and accepted his gift of eternal life. . A gift has to be accepted otherwise it just stays unclaimed and is worthless. Revkev

11:35am Wed 4 Jul 12

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
The baddest two decisions that Christianity ever made was that God made suffering mandatory. If the suffering of mankind is mandatory, then the God of mankind is just another God of cruelty. There should be ZERO tolerance for cruelty, as far as Humanity is concerned.


.


If an Atheist can enjoy the Eternal fruits of Heaven. The Eternal Joy, the Eternal Peace, the Eternal Paradise and feel the Eternal desire to feel thankful for this moment with each breath before death, then that blows all the Popes, Religions, Priests and just about every other Doctrine I can think of totally out of the water.


.


How would the Religious explain an Atheist who can enjoy the Bliss of The Infinite and all the fun of the finite at the same time ?
Ken,
It wasn't God who brought suffering, and Christianity did not decide this, nor claim it.
The Creator looked down on his world and it was "very good".
It was paradise.
Then we humans fell and messed things up.
.
God's creation was perfect, damaged only by our actions.
.
As for an atheist enjoying the "Bliss of The Infinite and all the fun of the infinite at the same time', you'll have to show me chapter and verse for that.
.
Most atheists I know don't believe in an afterlife. They understand that they are snuffed out at death and their atoms recycled into something else.
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: The baddest two decisions that Christianity ever made was that God made suffering mandatory. If the suffering of mankind is mandatory, then the God of mankind is just another God of cruelty. There should be ZERO tolerance for cruelty, as far as Humanity is concerned. . If an Atheist can enjoy the Eternal fruits of Heaven. The Eternal Joy, the Eternal Peace, the Eternal Paradise and feel the Eternal desire to feel thankful for this moment with each breath before death, then that blows all the Popes, Religions, Priests and just about every other Doctrine I can think of totally out of the water. . How would the Religious explain an Atheist who can enjoy the Bliss of The Infinite and all the fun of the finite at the same time ?[/p][/quote]Ken, It wasn't God who brought suffering, and Christianity did not decide this, nor claim it. The Creator looked down on his world and it was "very good". It was paradise. Then we humans fell and messed things up. . God's creation was perfect, damaged only by our actions. . As for an atheist enjoying the "Bliss of The Infinite and all the fun of the infinite at the same time', you'll have to show me chapter and verse for that. . Most atheists I know don't believe in an afterlife. They understand that they are snuffed out at death and their atoms recycled into something else. Revkev

11:57am Wed 4 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Revkev wrote:
Ken Shuffles wrote: Eternal Life, is a constant certainty.
Only if you've accepted Jesus as your Saviour and Lord, says the Bible. Only if you've made your peace with God and accepted his gift of eternal life. . A gift has to be accepted otherwise it just stays unclaimed and is worthless.
Each Breath is the Gift of Life Eternal and no two Life's have ever been made. Life is God and God is Life. Only Life is a Living entity, and Bibles are not living. I am at peace with Life and that means I will still be at peace with Life on the day of transit. I have never felt at peace with birth and death but I don't blame God and Jesus for it. I agree, a Gift has to be opened and received otherwise it's just a useless rumour.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Eternal Life, is a constant certainty.[/p][/quote]Only if you've accepted Jesus as your Saviour and Lord, says the Bible. Only if you've made your peace with God and accepted his gift of eternal life. . A gift has to be accepted otherwise it just stays unclaimed and is worthless.[/p][/quote]Each Breath is the Gift of Life Eternal and no two Life's have ever been made. Life is God and God is Life. Only Life is a Living entity, and Bibles are not living. I am at peace with Life and that means I will still be at peace with Life on the day of transit. I have never felt at peace with birth and death but I don't blame God and Jesus for it. I agree, a Gift has to be opened and received otherwise it's just a useless rumour. Ken Shuffles

12:05pm Wed 4 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

I can forgive you for all your damaging earthly thoughts, all your damaging intentions, and all your damaging actions and free you from your good and bad karma, as well as any circumstancial consequences of your birth and your death before you die.


.


Now, You will not be punished for your actions Kev, how do you feel about that.
I can forgive you for all your damaging earthly thoughts, all your damaging intentions, and all your damaging actions and free you from your good and bad karma, as well as any circumstancial consequences of your birth and your death before you die. . Now, You will not be punished for your actions Kev, how do you feel about that. Ken Shuffles

12:16pm Wed 4 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Man invented the logic of sorrow and suffering and by that same logic, the sorrow and the suffering is upheld and tolerated by the religious. All religion has to offer is a fantasy reasoning of a fantasy God and some buildings.


.


Don't believe in the logics of painful sorrows and suffering, and there will be no more painful sorrows and suffering.
Man invented the logic of sorrow and suffering and by that same logic, the sorrow and the suffering is upheld and tolerated by the religious. All religion has to offer is a fantasy reasoning of a fantasy God and some buildings. . Don't believe in the logics of painful sorrows and suffering, and there will be no more painful sorrows and suffering. Ken Shuffles

12:21pm Wed 4 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Death has never been for those who are Living.
Death has never been for those who are Living. Ken Shuffles

12:32pm Wed 4 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

You will not be punished or disturbed by Death if you are Living. You may be emotionally challenged by Death, but that will pass as other emotional challenges have passed but those who are Living will never be punished. They have not been made Living so that they can be punished. If the idea was to just punish people for their mistakes then Earth, Wind and Fire and Birth and Death would not have been required.
You will not be punished or disturbed by Death if you are Living. You may be emotionally challenged by Death, but that will pass as other emotional challenges have passed but those who are Living will never be punished. They have not been made Living so that they can be punished. If the idea was to just punish people for their mistakes then Earth, Wind and Fire and Birth and Death would not have been required. Ken Shuffles

2:15pm Wed 4 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Any circumstancial rewards or obstacles that are consequencial to your good and bad actions performed by you when you were on Earth, will be distributed to your remaining good and bad earthly relatives to deal with.


How do you feel about that ?
Any circumstancial rewards or obstacles that are consequencial to your good and bad actions performed by you when you were on Earth, will be distributed to your remaining good and bad earthly relatives to deal with. How do you feel about that ? Ken Shuffles

2:18pm Wed 4 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

As of this moment You are released from the wheel of Karma Kevin, and it's only Wednesday. How do you feel about that ?
As of this moment You are released from the wheel of Karma Kevin, and it's only Wednesday. How do you feel about that ? Ken Shuffles

6:56pm Wed 4 Jul 12

Graham Hartley says...

from Revkev - "All this stated, peace on earth is a goal even beyond religion. We six billion humans are sinners and peace is never going to be possible when each of us uses our free will for our own ends."

So peace on Earth is not achievable even by the influence of all those prayers and hymns? It's some task; consider, too all those on other planets yet to be discovered but known to God.

What of sinning philanthropists, who freely decide to contribute to public good? Locally, I think of Mercer Hall in Great Harwood, given by the Mercer family; even such acts of free will are quite literally not good enough.
from Revkev - "All this stated, peace on earth is a goal even beyond religion. We six billion humans are sinners and peace is never going to be possible when each of us uses our free will for our own ends." So peace on Earth is not achievable even by the influence of all those prayers and hymns? It's some task; consider, too all those on other planets yet to be discovered but known to God. What of sinning philanthropists, who freely decide to contribute to public good? Locally, I think of Mercer Hall in Great Harwood, given by the Mercer family; even such acts of free will are quite literally not good enough. Graham Hartley

11:15pm Wed 4 Jul 12

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
Peace, WHILE we are HERE on Earth is attainable.


.


If Kev, you mean ceasefire flavoured peace on earth then I would agree with you - a ceasefire between wars is not peace. Peace is a feeling, and either it needs to be felt, or the greedy left wanting can fund-manage their world of birth and death without it.


To be at peace, the human psych needs to have felt the desire to be thankful, because the desire to feel thankful is the only desire that has not been created by God and the only desire that cannot be satisfied by Man.
Ken, we agree with each other. I couldn't put it better myself.
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Peace, WHILE we are HERE on Earth is attainable. . If Kev, you mean ceasefire flavoured peace on earth then I would agree with you - a ceasefire between wars is not peace. Peace is a feeling, and either it needs to be felt, or the greedy left wanting can fund-manage their world of birth and death without it. To be at peace, the human psych needs to have felt the desire to be thankful, because the desire to feel thankful is the only desire that has not been created by God and the only desire that cannot be satisfied by Man.[/p][/quote]Ken, we agree with each other. I couldn't put it better myself. Revkev

10:30am Thu 5 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Until the human condition is at peace, feels at peace, nothing we come up with will work. Reading won't work and writing won't work. Education won't work. Moral codes won't work, and regulations and gods and demons simply will not work. Nothing is good enough, and no solutions of any kind will ever work, until peace has been realised within EACH human condition.


Until we are driven by feeling a need to feel something called peace, all our logics will get us nowhere. We are feeling machines, and whether what we think and do fits in with some convenient cultural logic or not, it is never going to be enough to change the fundamental nature of our reality which is a magnificent and beautiful and divine thing.


.


I'm not sure agreeing with an Atheist is allowed.
Until the human condition is at peace, feels at peace, nothing we come up with will work. Reading won't work and writing won't work. Education won't work. Moral codes won't work, and regulations and gods and demons simply will not work. Nothing is good enough, and no solutions of any kind will ever work, until peace has been realised within EACH human condition. Until we are driven by feeling a need to feel something called peace, all our logics will get us nowhere. We are feeling machines, and whether what we think and do fits in with some convenient cultural logic or not, it is never going to be enough to change the fundamental nature of our reality which is a magnificent and beautiful and divine thing. . I'm not sure agreeing with an Atheist is allowed. Ken Shuffles

10:55pm Thu 5 Jul 12

l m h jones says...

Revkev wrote:
Ken Shuffles wrote:
Eternal Life, is a constant certainty.
Only if you've accepted Jesus as your Saviour and Lord, says the Bible.
Only if you've made your peace with God and accepted his gift of eternal life.
.
A gift has to be accepted otherwise it just stays unclaimed and is worthless.
so much for people who follow other faiths then.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Eternal Life, is a constant certainty.[/p][/quote]Only if you've accepted Jesus as your Saviour and Lord, says the Bible. Only if you've made your peace with God and accepted his gift of eternal life. . A gift has to be accepted otherwise it just stays unclaimed and is worthless.[/p][/quote]so much for people who follow other faiths then. l m h jones

1:15pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Everyone who is alive now accepts the precious Gift of Life one day. It's not a lifestyle based choice, there is an actual moment like that when the Gift of Life is accepted and opened in everyones existence. Religion doesn't stop that. Nothing can stop that.
Everyone who is alive now accepts the precious Gift of Life one day. It's not a lifestyle based choice, there is an actual moment like that when the Gift of Life is accepted and opened in everyones existence. Religion doesn't stop that. Nothing can stop that. Ken Shuffles

1:19pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

In that moment, everything else is put away and we get to be with the Absolute and feel Thankful.
In that moment, everything else is put away and we get to be with the Absolute and feel Thankful. Ken Shuffles

4:12pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
I can forgive you for all your damaging earthly thoughts, all your damaging intentions, and all your damaging actions and free you from your good and bad karma, as well as any circumstancial consequences of your birth and your death before you die.


.


Now, You will not be punished for your actions Kev, how do you feel about that.
If you were the Creator of the Universe, that would be a great offer, Ken.
.
However, you've been pipped at the post. The real God has already done the job.
.
I could put in a good word for you, Ken.
How would you feel about that?
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: I can forgive you for all your damaging earthly thoughts, all your damaging intentions, and all your damaging actions and free you from your good and bad karma, as well as any circumstancial consequences of your birth and your death before you die. . Now, You will not be punished for your actions Kev, how do you feel about that.[/p][/quote]If you were the Creator of the Universe, that would be a great offer, Ken. . However, you've been pipped at the post. The real God has already done the job. . I could put in a good word for you, Ken. How would you feel about that? Revkev

4:16pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Revkev says...

Ken Shuffles wrote:
Any circumstancial rewards or obstacles that are consequencial to your good and bad actions performed by you when you were on Earth, will be distributed to your remaining good and bad earthly relatives to deal with.


How do you feel about that ?
Where do you get this one from, Ken?
Did you produce it yourself or borrow it from others?
[quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Any circumstancial rewards or obstacles that are consequencial to your good and bad actions performed by you when you were on Earth, will be distributed to your remaining good and bad earthly relatives to deal with. How do you feel about that ?[/p][/quote]Where do you get this one from, Ken? Did you produce it yourself or borrow it from others? Revkev

4:47pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Revkev says...

Hi Ken,
Re-reading my last comment, it sounds cheeky.
What I'm asking is, what's your authority for claiming to apportion out eternal rewards?
Hi Ken, Re-reading my last comment, it sounds cheeky. What I'm asking is, what's your authority for claiming to apportion out eternal rewards? Revkev

11:37pm Fri 6 Jul 12

Graham Hartley says...

Revkev wrote:
Hi Ken,
Re-reading my last comment, it sounds cheeky.
What I'm asking is, what's your authority for claiming to apportion out eternal rewards?
Catholics have no trouble with this one. Indulgence abuse, the rest of us call it.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: Hi Ken, Re-reading my last comment, it sounds cheeky. What I'm asking is, what's your authority for claiming to apportion out eternal rewards?[/p][/quote]Catholics have no trouble with this one. Indulgence abuse, the rest of us call it. Graham Hartley

10:08am Sat 7 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Revkev wrote:
Ken Shuffles wrote: Any circumstancial rewards or obstacles that are consequencial to your good and bad actions performed by you when you were on Earth, will be distributed to your remaining good and bad earthly relatives to deal with. How do you feel about that ?
Where do you get this one from, Ken? Did you produce it yourself or borrow it from others?
The REAL God ? Could you explain or otherwise verify the difference between what is Real and what is Unreal?


.


I don't need an authority to dish out anything Kev.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ken Shuffles[/bold] wrote: Any circumstancial rewards or obstacles that are consequencial to your good and bad actions performed by you when you were on Earth, will be distributed to your remaining good and bad earthly relatives to deal with. How do you feel about that ?[/p][/quote]Where do you get this one from, Ken? Did you produce it yourself or borrow it from others?[/p][/quote]The REAL God ? Could you explain or otherwise verify the difference between what is Real and what is Unreal? . I don't need an authority to dish out anything Kev. Ken Shuffles

10:13am Sat 7 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

As far as your good and bad deeds and relatives are concerned, Just wait and see for your self if you don't believe me. Your misplaced earthly causes and their effects have to go somewhere, and I think that's fair. Good effects to the good and bad effects to the bad. Where do you want the effects of your deeds to go.?
As far as your good and bad deeds and relatives are concerned, Just wait and see for your self if you don't believe me. Your misplaced earthly causes and their effects have to go somewhere, and I think that's fair. Good effects to the good and bad effects to the bad. Where do you want the effects of your deeds to go.? Ken Shuffles

10:19am Sat 7 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Graham Hartley wrote:
Revkev wrote: Hi Ken, Re-reading my last comment, it sounds cheeky. What I'm asking is, what's your authority for claiming to apportion out eternal rewards?
Catholics have no trouble with this one. Indulgence abuse, the rest of us call it.
What the priests call a church and what the lord calls a church are certainly and verifyably not the same thing. One is Perfect, the other is a lame excuse for a roman orgy of greed and deceptions.
[quote][p][bold]Graham Hartley[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: Hi Ken, Re-reading my last comment, it sounds cheeky. What I'm asking is, what's your authority for claiming to apportion out eternal rewards?[/p][/quote]Catholics have no trouble with this one. Indulgence abuse, the rest of us call it.[/p][/quote]What the priests call a church and what the lord calls a church are certainly and verifyably not the same thing. One is Perfect, the other is a lame excuse for a roman orgy of greed and deceptions. Ken Shuffles

10:23am Sat 7 Jul 12

Ken Shuffles says...

Revkev wrote:
Hi Ken, Re-reading my last comment, it sounds cheeky. What I'm asking is, what's your authority for claiming to apportion out eternal rewards?
The eternal reward, is the only sort of reward I can offer. I have nothing else to offer.
[quote][p][bold]Revkev[/bold] wrote: Hi Ken, Re-reading my last comment, it sounds cheeky. What I'm asking is, what's your authority for claiming to apportion out eternal rewards?[/p][/quote]The eternal reward, is the only sort of reward I can offer. I have nothing else to offer. Ken Shuffles

Comments are closed on this article.

click2find

About cookies

We want you to enjoy your visit to our website. That's why we use cookies to enhance your experience. By staying on our website you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more about the cookies we use.

I agree