Is our present generation is learning the hard way? (From Lancashire Telegraph)
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Is our present generation is learning the hard way?
8:00am Saturday 4th February 2012 in Opinion
The strap, cane and PE pump across the buttocks disappeared from most Lancashire schools a generation ago this spring, though the independents kept them for another decade.
I well remember an hour-long 'firing-squad' purgatory outside my head's office in one south Lancashire school awaiting three promised hefty whacks, an experience I vowed never to repeat; probably why I never graduated to the famous six of the best on the stage.
Birching for under-15s, usually three or four painful strokes for theft, was still around in the North West into the 70s, thanks to the Isle of Man, who vowed to keep at least a small part of the UK from 'mods', 'rockers', and 'uncouth youth'.
This was a generation that still held to a godly righteousness; a belief that the authorities owed a duty of care to those in their hands, and that wrong-doing deserved stern, proportional and appropriate punishment.
It was the outworking of a wise love that refused to let youth rule culture, who wisely accepted that this job belonged to older heads.
For many it stemmed from Proverbs 13:24 suggesting that you hate your kids if you spare the rod and refuse to discipline them.
Seven years ago parents almost lost the right to smack their naughty children, but at the last minute Labour allowed it so long as no red marks were left.
This week both Labour and Tory MPs called for a new debate on discipline, blaming last year's riots on parents' reluctance to discipline for fear of losing their youngsters to red-mark hunting social workers.
Do you not think that our present generation is learning the hard way what happens when parents are 'caned' and deterred from following the proverbial wisdom of our Maker?
Comments(56)
Graham Hartley
says...
11:35am Sat 4 Feb 12
Revkev's God is violent, ill-tempered and jealous, among much else. What is surprising is that Revkev champions Him so.
Ken Shuffles
says...
12:08pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
says...
12:14pm Sat 4 Feb 12
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Peace shines in the absence of pain and suffering kevin not the presence of pain and suffering.
Ken Shuffles
says...
12:25pm Sat 4 Feb 12
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We should let the man take responsibility for peace not the Gods. We would be a long time waiting for the tanks and the missiles and the bombs and the bullets to show up if God had to design and develope and supply them.
Ken Shuffles
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12:31pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
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12:34pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Revkev
says...
1:47pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Graham Hartley wrote:Hello Graham,
We who were schooled with the cane and the slap don't forget. The experience informs my view as an acidic critic of education.
Revkev's God is violent, ill-tempered and jealous, among much else. What is surprising is that Revkev champions Him so.
As an "acidic critic" of education you will have some notion of discipline.
You know that human nature, especially as it is being formed in childhood, needs guidance and, well, education.
What is the Graham Hartley philosophy of discipline?
Revkev
says...
1:57pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles wrote:Hello Ken,
Why do the people of god always justify pain and suffering as a noble and worthy means.?
.
We need to be spared this ignorant cult.
You and God will have some interesting debates when you meet after this life.
He says we shouldn't spare the rod and you say we should be spared this ignorance.
I have to admire you for your strong courage.
Taking on God and his Bible plus the wisdom of previous generations seems a huge task when you're merely armed with frail and imperfect human opinions.
Revkev
says...
2:03pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles wrote:Ken,
Fear is a falsehood and a deceit, not a solution for peace. Fear leads to disturbance and pain. It does not lead anyone to peace. Cruelty does not lead to peace and without peace there will be fear and other falshoods.
Fear keeps our children safe on the roads.
Fear stopped me smoking 40 fags a day and now prevents me living on Big Macs and French fries.
Fear keeps me driving below the speed limit and without due care and attention.
This fear is healthy.
This is the fear of consequences, which are as natural to human life as your beloved breathing.
There's nothing cruel in telling children that there are painful consequences if they choose to break the laws of life.
Revkev
says...
2:03pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles wrote:Ken,
Fear is a falsehood and a deceit, not a solution for peace. Fear leads to disturbance and pain. It does not lead anyone to peace. Cruelty does not lead to peace and without peace there will be fear and other falshoods.
Fear keeps our children safe on the roads.
Fear stopped me smoking 40 fags a day and now prevents me living on Big Macs and French fries.
Fear keeps me driving below the speed limit and without due care and attention.
This fear is healthy.
This is the fear of consequences, which are as natural to human life as your beloved breathing.
There's nothing cruel in telling children that there are painful consequences if they choose to break the laws of life.
Revkev
says...
2:14pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles wrote:Ken,
Punishment and suffering is a familiar lie that will never NEVER never, ever, bring us peace.
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Peace shines in the absence of pain and suffering kevin not the presence of pain and suffering.
In the history of the world, there has only ever been one peaceful period without war - the great Pax Romana, more than 2,000 years ago.
And even in that Roman Empire peace, human nature was doing everything short of all-out war.
Ken, there is never going to be peace on Planet Earth, not while human nature is as it is.**
The best one can hope for is the control of human nature.
Law and order and the fear of consequences and punishment for unlawful disorder is the only effective way of minimising punishment and suffering.
**There is hope of peace, but Jesus told us of a new heaven and a new earth where this will be achieved.
Revelation 21.
Here there will be no suffering, punishment, tears etc.
umustbjoking
says...
2:30pm Sat 4 Feb 12
When will the government look at themselves for there own failings.
Like lets cut funding in schools, close childrens centres, remove funding for old folks, and lets now move old people out of there homes because it is under housed etc. Oh and lets privatise everything that we can.
Yet it is ok to pay a bonus to a bank worker that made redudancies last year to at least 1000 members of staff. We the people, have bailed out the banks with our money and that money should have gone back into the pot for all. Then the CONDEMS blame Labour for inherting a debit, yet Labour inherited a debit.
Senseless acts were caused in the riots and triggered along with the issues that arose in the failings of the police to deal with issues. This led to a general outburst by many generations from young to old, and some of these would have experienced being canned as a child.
In the bible there are 2 types of God described one revengeful in the old testament and one of love in the new testament.
doleboytrotter
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3:13pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Parly
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5:43pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Revkev
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11:18pm Sat 4 Feb 12
Parly wrote:Hi Parly
RevKev – apologise for sounding a bit simple but does this mean you're all for parents, teachers and priests being able to wallop children?
"Wallop" is not my word.
It implies lashing out without control or care, and that's not what I'm writing about.
My words stated that we "owed a duty of care" to our children and this meant that "wrong-doing deserved stern, proportional and appropriate punishment."
I think parents should be able to smack their children (that's 'smack', not 'wallop').
I believe schools were better ordered, and right and wrong was underlined, when there was an ultimate physical deterrent.
Those three hefty whacks sure deterred me from worse behaviour.
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By the way Parly, I don't think I mentioned priests, nor would I want to.
Revkev
says...
11:37pm Sat 4 Feb 12
I understand your frustration with government priorities.
However, I think you misunderstand the God's book.
You write....
xxxxx
"In the bible there are 2 types of God described one revengeful in the old testament and one of love in the new testament."
xxxxxx
I've studied God's book for 40 years.
I even wrote a commentary on O.T. Hosea showing the great love that God has for us.
Song of Songs in the O.T. is a beautiful picture of how God loves you and me.
The love of God courses through the Old Testament as he provides help and guidance and support to his people.
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When you put the old and new together you get a portrait of a God who loves us so much that he sent his Son to save us.
True, there are wrathful passages. There's even a world-wide flood.
But even these are understandable when set against the message of God's love.
Have another read, umustbejoking, and ask God to show you his truth and love.
Graham Hartley
says...
8:48pm Sun 5 Feb 12
Revkev wrote:I can give a description of discipline, though it's not originally mine and I don't count it as philosophy. Discipline is not allied with punishment, fear or fear of punishment. It is closely associated with curiosity, effort, urgency and reward. Those who hit pupils, threw board rubbers at them and (now) detain them after school teach pupils about power, belligerence and revenge - GCSE sociology, to legitimise it.
Graham Hartley wrote:Hello Graham,
We who were schooled with the cane and the slap don't forget. The experience informs my view as an acidic critic of education.
Revkev's God is violent, ill-tempered and jealous, among much else. What is surprising is that Revkev champions Him so.
As an "acidic critic" of education you will have some notion of discipline.
You know that human nature, especially as it is being formed in childhood, needs guidance and, well, education.
What is the Graham Hartley philosophy of discipline?
Excluded again
says...
8:53pm Sun 5 Feb 12
Think of our brave troops currently serving in Afghanistan. Are they caned, are they hit with pumps, are they birched? No, but they are certainly disciplined.
I have never hit my children but they are disciplined, they know right from wrong and they are often complimented on their good behaviour.
If you need to hit smaller people in order to try to instill discipline in them, then you need someone to instill some real discipline in you.
l m h jones
says...
10:27pm Sun 5 Feb 12
Revkev
says...
10:34pm Sun 5 Feb 12
Graham Hartley wrote:Hi Graham,
Revkev wrote:I can give a description of discipline, though it's not originally mine and I don't count it as philosophy. Discipline is not allied with punishment, fear or fear of punishment. It is closely associated with curiosity, effort, urgency and reward. Those who hit pupils, threw board rubbers at them and (now) detain them after school teach pupils about power, belligerence and revenge - GCSE sociology, to legitimise it.
Graham Hartley wrote:Hello Graham,
We who were schooled with the cane and the slap don't forget. The experience informs my view as an acidic critic of education.
Revkev's God is violent, ill-tempered and jealous, among much else. What is surprising is that Revkev champions Him so.
As an "acidic critic" of education you will have some notion of discipline.
You know that human nature, especially as it is being formed in childhood, needs guidance and, well, education.
What is the Graham Hartley philosophy of discipline?
It's good as a description on the positive side.
Reward, positive encouragement and so on is helpful.
.
Sometimes, the word 'NO' brings in the negative. And what happens when, for example, two-year-olds say NO?
Okay, you can distract them on to other things as many parents try to do.
You can offer them various incentives (sometimes verging on bribes).
You can reason with them - though a two-year old has limited abilities in this area.
You tell them that if they don't do as they're told, then consequences will follow (i.e the naughty stool, a quiet time in their own room, a loss of something they like).
At two years of age, this battle rages in most homes, and increasingly this is where the battle is being lost to the child.
To me, it was simple to tell my children what I believed was right for them; to tell them where the line was; the line that they should not cross.
If they didn't do it, or said no, I told them there would be consequences.
I then operated a countdown system, giving them time to act.
.
At the beginning, they thought they should do their own thing and crossed the line. They got a smack across the back of their legs.
In this way they learned that there was a line and if they crossed it there were consequences.
After the children had reached four/five, I don't think I ever smacked them again, with one notable exception.
I didn't have to, and at later ages there were far more effective consequences/punishm
ents.
Graham Hartley
says...
11:23pm Sun 5 Feb 12
Doesn't it always do that? Yet why is there such caution when this word is used? When a teacher of mathematics says that there are no square numbers between 9 and 16 because there are no natural numbers between 3 and 4, we do not regret the use of the negative, perhaps because it is correctly applied.
Carlost
says...
8:57am Mon 6 Feb 12
I see you are back to your old mediaeval ways again after a few sensible weeks. You look back on the times of the cane and slipper with fondness ( spooky! ), like many older folk you have your false memory syndrome and rose tinted glasses. On the whole society was not better back then, you mentioned mods and rockers, before that there were the teddy boys with their knives and bicycle chains, and the older generation had their fights and brawls on a Saturday night after closing time.There was open discrimination against black people and women, corporal punishment didn’t stop the moors murderers, or the wife beatings or the child abuse that was never reported as it is now( ref Catholic Church). It was perfectly acceptable to spit in front of people and blow smoke over them, remember public transport in the 50s and 60s. I have children and grandchildren who have never been beaten or caned and are totally decent and caring people like most young people are today. They have been through the education system without fear of being hit or physically abused, like most civilised countries we don’t even beat people who break the law so why should it be OK to beat children. I know your old testament god likes to “smite” and is not opposed to the occasional genocide.. But I assume you are a New Testament Jesus God type in which case you should be ashamed of yourself wanting to inflict pain on children. There are more reasonable, sensible, fair and caring ways to discipline children than to physically hurt them. Your column again reinforces how thankfull I am not to believe in your imaginary god and all the silly and dangerous notions that follow from it.
Ken Shuffles
says...
11:43am Mon 6 Feb 12
Revkev wrote:Jesus said, Peace is a beautiful feeling that can only be felt, nobody can invent this feeling, it has to be felt by someone. It has to be enjoyed by someone and it has to be appreciated by someone.
Ken Shuffles wrote: Punishment and suffering is a familiar lie that will never NEVER never, ever, bring us peace. . Peace shines in the absence of pain and suffering kevin not the presence of pain and suffering.Ken, In the history of the world, there has only ever been one peaceful period without war - the great Pax Romana, more than 2,000 years ago. And even in that Roman Empire peace, human nature was doing everything short of all-out war. Ken, there is never going to be peace on Planet Earth, not while human nature is as it is.** The best one can hope for is the control of human nature. Law and order and the fear of consequences and punishment for unlawful disorder is the only effective way of minimising punishment and suffering. **There is hope of peace, but Jesus told us of a new heaven and a new earth where this will be achieved. Revelation 21. Here there will be no suffering, punishment, tears etc.
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Human Beings, while they are here on Earth, have been designed to feel perfect peace. The Human condition has been designed with a need, a desire, to feel perfect, perfect, peace.
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Perfect Peace, is a possibility not constrained by any of the birth and death circumstances in which we may find ourselves. There are of course other kinds of peace, but they all have limits.
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We need a safe place to protect our human nature from the harsh elements outside of us and we also need a safe place to protect our selves from the harsh judgments and confusions, pains, sorrows, angers and fears, that exist within our human condition too.
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Here in this world of sorrows, there can be suffering, the ugly possibility and the beautiful possibility are both here and because this can be perplexing, perfect peace has also become possible, for any human being who wants it.
Ken Shuffles
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11:45am Mon 6 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
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1:42pm Mon 6 Feb 12
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Any response, any answer, any resolution of this question, can only come from your self or my name isn't Ken Shuffles.
Ken Shuffles
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1:55pm Mon 6 Feb 12
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If you can put aside all man's rumours about the birth and death that was, and you can see your moment as your opportunity then you can say 'hello' to your self.
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If you say 'hello' to your self, your self will always touch you back.
Joseph Yossarian
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2:32pm Mon 6 Feb 12
Joseph Yossarian
says...
2:41pm Mon 6 Feb 12
Revkev wrote:"""There's nothing cruel in telling children that there are painful consequences if they choose to break the laws of life."""
Ken Shuffles wrote: Fear is a falsehood and a deceit, not a solution for peace. Fear leads to disturbance and pain. It does not lead anyone to peace. Cruelty does not lead to peace and without peace there will be fear and other falshoods.Ken, Fear keeps our children safe on the roads. Fear stopped me smoking 40 fags a day and now prevents me living on Big Macs and French fries. Fear keeps me driving below the speed limit and without due care and attention. This fear is healthy. This is the fear of consequences, which are as natural to human life as your beloved breathing. There's nothing cruel in telling children that there are painful consequences if they choose to break the laws of life.
The threat of violence, in other words.
Education stopped you smoking, unless of course your doctor threatened to strangle you with a stethascope.
Education that speeding increases the risk of accidents slows you down, not the threat of being put into the back of a mariah with a bunch of angry plod.
Violence as an educational tool is somewhat victorian, to say the least.
I've never been threatened with violence by my parents, and yet somehow here I am, knowing the difference between right and wrong.
Ken Shuffles
says...
4:16pm Mon 6 Feb 12
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People who feel kindness act with kindness and if they have anything worthwhile to teach anyone, they will teach them out of kindness not with fear.
Ken Shuffles
says...
4:23pm Mon 6 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
says...
4:28pm Mon 6 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
says...
4:30pm Mon 6 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
says...
4:32pm Mon 6 Feb 12
Graham Hartley
says...
10:31pm Tue 7 Feb 12
More God, more comments. More God = Groomed (anagram)
Revkev
says...
10:40am Wed 8 Feb 12
I once knew a Graham who did that and he ended up preaching to the world.
His first name, of course, was Billy, and, amazingly, he's still going (though not as strong) in his mid to late nineties.
Thinking 'more God' enabled him to be groomed by God's spirit.
He was born again, and you could say that was an spiritual anagram.
God took what Graham spirit there was, mixed it up and renewed it, and out came the new Billy Graham:-
Revkev
says...
11:08am Wed 8 Feb 12
doleboytrotter wrote:Hi doleboytrotter,
Check this out for a frail and imperfect human opinion: "There is a God and this God thinks it is ok to for people to hit each other".
Actually, it's even worse than what you write above.
God hits people himself!
Remember Jesus (God become man John 1), in the temple. He was so outraged by what men were doing to his Father's House that he whipped them out of the place.
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Generally, though, Jesus advises us to turn the other cheek, and when Peter cut off the arresting officer's ear in the Garden of Gethsemane, he told him that those who lived by the sword would perish by it.
Which brings a conundrum.
Won't those who live by the rod (used on a child) perish by it?
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The solution is found in seeing that the wrath and love of God are part and parcel of the same.
God loves us so much that he is willing to die for us in Jesus on the cross of Calvary.
God loves us so much that he forgives us our sins and accepts us as his children if we accept him as our Father.
However, his love is so strong that it makes him want to bring stubborn sinners to their senses.
The alternative is to let them slide into hell, and his love for us fights this, short of taking away the free will he gave us.
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His efforts to save us sometimes involves whipping us out of his temple.
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(Interesting thought: the wise man in trouble and strive should always wonder whether God is trying to tell him something in his suffering).
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At other times, this rescuing God sent his wrath and holy anger on his Old Testament people to teach them lessons.
Frequently, he used his Old Testament people to knock some sense into pagan neighbours.
God loves us so much that he will do anything to save us, even if it means resorting to occasional violence.
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He expects earthly parents to love their children in the same way.
He expects them to grab the child and violently pull him back from the path of a car the nipper's just walked in front of.
He expects a loving dad/mum to give the nipper a slap round the legs and good telling off not to do that again.
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God knew that rearing children was a tough-love business and that's why he said that "he who spares the rod hates his sons".
Hope this helps, doleboytrotter.
Revkev
says...
11:11am Wed 8 Feb 12
Graham Hartley wrote:Hi Graham,
We who were schooled with the cane and the slap don't forget. The experience informs my view as an acidic critic of education.
Revkev's God is violent, ill-tempered and jealous, among much else. What is surprising is that Revkev champions Him so.
Just replied to Doleboytrotter, and much of what I wrote applies to your criticism above.
I thought it might help you understand why a loving God is sometimes violent.
Ken Shuffles
says...
3:11pm Wed 8 Feb 12
Revkev wrote:When you came up with the word GOD you also gave the genderless a gender. You also gave god a job. You also gave your god a day off from all the hard work. Then you gave your god, the one god who according to you is everywhere, an address.
Graham Hartley wrote: We who were schooled with the cane and the slap don't forget. The experience informs my view as an acidic critic of education. Revkev's God is violent, ill-tempered and jealous, among much else. What is surprising is that Revkev champions Him so.Hi Graham, Just replied to Doleboytrotter, and much of what I wrote applies to your criticism above. I thought it might help you understand why a loving God is sometimes violent.
Perhaps you can explain, help me to understand, why a loving christian, a loving parent, a loving person, is sometimes capable of dishing out and distributing the violence ?
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Is it because they are filled with peace and happiness from god or is it because they are filled with the violence of god ?
How can ANY love be pure, if it is mixed up with wrath? How does peace work when it is mixed up with violence? How is understanding anything possible, when our understanding is polluted and infected with ignorance and darkness or some other convenient version of god and some wild make deceive that suggest the uncontrollable forces of nature will consider or favour your existence before it starts tearing you apart and chewing you up.
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Your god obviously has his favourites.
Ken Shuffles
says...
3:27pm Wed 8 Feb 12
The forces of nature, have no regard whatsoever for christian thoughts and beliefs. We may like to pray that they do, we may like to think that they do but in reality, these forces of nature will someday destroy us without a care or a hoot about our existence, good or bad, one way or the another.
Ken Shuffles
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3:32pm Wed 8 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
says...
3:40pm Wed 8 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
says...
3:43pm Wed 8 Feb 12
Revkev
says...
12:11am Thu 9 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles wrote:Ken,
On the last day, you will be wiped out by the forces of nature. Whatever you have thought and believed about the realm of human nature will be totally wiped out.
If you're right about nature wiping everything out, we'll none of us know.
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And in this case, it actually doesn't matter what the heck we write in this column.
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If you're right that nothing survives, why so bothered about worshipping your beloved breath?
It's just a bit of wind.
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Why bother about writing so much each week?
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If I'm right, Ken, and it's God who calls the shots, even over nature, you're in for a whole lot of explaining, my friend.
You're in my prayers.
Revkev
says...
12:15am Thu 9 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles wrote:Ken,
When there are no emotional disturbances, no psychological disturbances and no physical disturbances will there be peace within the human condition. If there is no personal peace within the human condition how can there be peace on earth.?
There's incredible peace within when you let God into your life.
The One who controls nature, was a powerful help when I invited him into my life in January, 1971, and he remains so today.
I can warmly recommend him.
Ken Shuffles
says...
11:54am Thu 9 Feb 12
The infinite is already in my life. I agree, Earth, Wind and Fire make a good combo, but even the forces of nature need an energy and a pulse to back them up just like the human condition does.
Forget about recommending God to anyone else just for one moment kev and tell me if you can recognise, not recommend but can you recognise that supreme energy, that supreme component, which is backing up all the forces and events and seasons of nature - for you.
Ken Shuffles
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11:58am Thu 9 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
says...
12:00pm Thu 9 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
says...
12:05pm Thu 9 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles
says...
12:22pm Thu 9 Feb 12
Revkev wrote:When we choose to put all the physical, emotional, and psychological disturbances, and any other crippling burdens we have picked up, that may limit our joy are put to one side, then the human condition will discover an abundance of beauty, love, fulfillment and peace is, always has been, and always will be, constantly favouring them.
Ken Shuffles wrote: When there are no emotional disturbances, no psychological disturbances and no physical disturbances will there be peace within the human condition. If there is no personal peace within the human condition how can there be peace on earth.?Ken, There's incredible peace within when you let God into your life. The One who controls nature, was a powerful help when I invited him into my life in January, 1971, and he remains so today. I can warmly recommend him.
Ken Shuffles
says...
12:33pm Thu 9 Feb 12
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To be really honest, we could not even ask or even hope, for more than we are already being given.
Ken Shuffles
says...
12:39pm Thu 9 Feb 12
Revkev
says...
1:11pm Thu 9 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles wrote:Yes, I can.
Kev,
The infinite is already in my life. I agree, Earth, Wind and Fire make a good combo, but even the forces of nature need an energy and a pulse to back them up just like the human condition does.
Forget about recommending God to anyone else just for one moment kev and tell me if you can recognise, not recommend but can you recognise that supreme energy, that supreme component, which is backing up all the forces and events and seasons of nature - for you.
Revkev
says...
12:06pm Sat 11 Feb 12
I feel privileged this week.
You've let me have the last word for a change in my column.
So far...:- :-
Graham Hartley
says...
1:06pm Mon 13 Feb 12
Ken Shuffles wrote:Indeed, Ken - what we know about the lifetimes of stars shows that in a few billion years or so our sun will expand to include within it the orbits of the inferior planets Mercury and Venus, and possibly our own planet. This will be trouble enough, but before that happens the temperature on Earth will have increased so much that all liquid water will have boiled away.
On the last day, you will be wiped out by the forces of nature. Whatever you have thought and believed about the realm of human nature will be totally wiped out.
Cathan2
says...
11:27am Thu 23 Feb 12
Is it because God approves of hitting children? I thought God was supposed to be loving and merciful? Seems to be a repellent bully by your account.
Is it moraly correct to hit children or an adult for that matter? God seems to think so.
Humane free-thinking adults can treat children with kindness and with intelligent care and don't need any invisible supernatural beings telling priests to tell the peasants to hit their children.
So don't hit your children because God tells you to.
If you want people to respect any God and have a regard for him or her then they should be appealing, approachable, friendly, caring, kind and supportive in life.
Ken Shuffles says...
11:17am Sat 4 Feb 12
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We need to be spared this ignorant cult.