Great-grandson's anger at Darwen grave topple testing (From Lancashire Telegraph)

I think its a disgrace that this can happen in a place of rest.

I had a similar thing occur when I went to visit a grave in St Peters Church in Darwen for a Mr & Mrs John Shorrock who died in a train crash in Penistone in 1884 who were well connected with the St Peters Church (formerly Holly Trinity) and accoring to records the Shorrock family formerly of Sudell House donated the front in the church to their memory. The headstone was supposed to be at the back of the church but when I went to the grave yard to take a look there wasn't a single tomb stone in site.

What a disgrace to someones memory.

Darwen old cemetery is a mess, the council should be ashamed of themselves. all the money that has been wasted on roundabout "works of art", whitebirke is just a weed infested mess. The council was quick to take peoples money for these graves, if vandals had smashed the grave stones no doubt some counciler would be ranting and raving about the youth of today. People have paid for these stones the council should have to pay for the damage that has been done.

Angusam wrote:
I think its a disgrace that this can happen in a place of rest. I had a similar thing occur when I went to visit a grave in St Peters Church in Darwen for a Mr & Mrs John Shorrock who died in a train crash in Penistone in 1884 who were well connected with the St Peters Church (formerly Holly Trinity) and accoring to records the Shorrock family formerly of Sudell House donated the front in the church to their memory. The headstone was supposed to be at the back of the church but when I went to the grave yard to take a look there wasn't a single tomb stone in site. What a disgrace to someones memory.

perhaps they made a pavement out of them somewhere?

Surely, if the residents of the graveyard are all laid out horizontally why can't the tombstones ? After all, whether in the womb or in the tomb no one is ever standing.

Ken Shuffles wrote:
Surely, if the residents of the graveyard are all laid out horizontally why can't the tombstones ? After all, whether in the womb or in the tomb no one is ever standing.

bit near the knuckle ken?
-
never saw the point of them myself but folk can be very emotional on the subject.

Only unsafe stones are laid flat. What's your problem with that, was it the fact it cost you? If the stone had fallen over and injured someone would you be shouting that the council should have tested them? If a structure is considered unsafe it should be taken down.

Peckish wrote:
Only unsafe stones are laid flat. What's your problem with that, was it the fact it cost you? If the stone had fallen over and injured someone would you be shouting that the council should have tested them? If a structure is considered unsafe it should be taken down.

Health & Safety numpties like you have made this country a worse place to live. Many of these gravestones have been standing perfectly adequately for years, some more than a century. In that time, there have not been scores of injuries or deaths from falling stones, so just leave them be. They are not designed to e pushed with force. Anyone messing around in graveyards should know the dangers. Next we will be concreting over ponds and canals because one or two people "accidentally" fall in - and some die. Next we will be banning dry stone walling in case one of the walls tumbles on a rambler while out in the countryside. Get a grip. More evidence of Americanisation and blame/claim litigation culture wrecking once-Great Britain.

MerlinTheVoiceofReas
on wrote:

Peckish wrote: Only unsafe stones are laid flat. What's your problem with that, was it the fact it cost you? If the stone had fallen over and injured someone would you be shouting that the council should have tested them? If a structure is considered unsafe it should be taken down.

Health & Safety numpties like you have made this country a worse place to live. Many of these gravestones have been standing perfectly adequately for years, some more than a century. In that time, there have not been scores of injuries or deaths from falling stones, so just leave them be. They are not designed to e pushed with force. Anyone messing around in graveyards should know the dangers. Next we will be concreting over ponds and canals because one or two people "accidentally" fall in - and some die. Next we will be banning dry stone walling in case one of the walls tumbles on a rambler while out in the countryside. Get a grip. More evidence of Americanisation and blame/claim litigation culture wrecking once-Great Britain.

I haven't always agreed with you in the past but on this issue I am with you 100%. Ambulance chasers and claim lawyers should be sent back to the cesspit they emerged from.

The voice of reason! How true

past it wrote:
Darwen old cemetery is a mess, the council should be ashamed of themselves. all the money that has been wasted on roundabout "works of art", whitebirke is just a weed infested mess. The council was quick to take peoples money for these graves, if vandals had smashed the grave stones no doubt some counciler would be ranting and raving about the youth of today. People have paid for these stones the council should have to pay for the damage that has been done.

Although Darwen cemetery is a mess, "The Friends of Darwen Cemetery" (see their website) are a group of volunteers working tremendously hard to reinstate the cemetery. To make it a fit place for the thousands of our ancestors both rich and poor who without them we would not exist. The least we can do for them is honour their memory by looking after their final resting place.

Peckish wrote:
Only unsafe stones are laid flat. What's your problem with that, was it the fact it cost you? If the stone had fallen over and injured someone would you be shouting that the council should have tested them? If a structure is considered unsafe it should be taken down.

No matter how silly the H&S culture gets, no matter how much the jobsworths try to justify their petty existence, there will always be someone who agrees with their stupidity.

BuckoTheMoose wrote:

Peckish wrote: Only unsafe stones are laid flat. What's your problem with that, was it the fact it cost you? If the stone had fallen over and injured someone would you be shouting that the council should have tested them? If a structure is considered unsafe it should be taken down.

No matter how silly the H&S culture gets, no matter how much the jobsworths try to justify their petty existence, there will always be someone who agrees with their stupidity.

As Billy Connolly, a very wise sage said "health and safety should be twarted at every turn!".
.
I thought that H&S was instigated to make the unregulated factories and workplaces of the past a safer place to work. Now H&S appears to be an excuse for some jobsworthing know-it-all with a clip board to actively find thngs that he can stick his yellow and black tape to.
.
The latest things is Kaizens which has the H&S geeks frothing in anticipation.

useyourhead wrote:

Ken Shuffles wrote: Surely, if the residents of the graveyard are all laid out horizontally why can't the tombstones ? After all, whether in the womb or in the tomb no one is ever standing.

bit near the knuckle ken? - never saw the point of them myself but folk can be very emotional on the subject.

Can't see why "you can't see point of having knuckles",you definitely need them. This is more especially so if you are a fully trained Darwen Cemetery Stone Tester, it's the main tool of their job allowing them to tap on their bosses heads to see if there is anything inside

notchuffed wrote:

useyourhead wrote:

Ken Shuffles wrote: Surely, if the residents of the graveyard are all laid out horizontally why can't the tombstones ? After all, whether in the womb or in the tomb no one is ever standing.

bit near the knuckle ken? - never saw the point of them myself but folk can be very emotional on the subject.

Can't see why "you can't see point of having knuckles",you definitely need them. This is more especially so if you are a fully trained Darwen Cemetery Stone Tester, it's the main tool of their job allowing them to tap on their bosses heads to see if there is anything inside

lol, or for dragging on the floor!

how do they know they have applied 35kg of force?
-
have they spent thousands on a machine?
-
is it calibrated regularly?
-
is it lateral force?
-
or do they throw something weighing 35kg? and if they do does that not exceed manual handling limits lol.
-

Come and do something about it.
Friends of Darwen Cemetery have a working party every other Saturday. Next one 11 September at 10.00. Contact us on www.darwencemetery.o
rg.uk.
Rosemary - Secretary

Oh for flips sake.
.
In the last 25 years in the UK there have been at least:

> 3 children killed
> 7 children seriously injured
> 2 adults killed
> 3 adults seriously injured
.
all due to falling or insecure headstones.
.
i say at least because that is as far as I could be bothered to search for on google on the matter.
.
The council has a legal duty under Occupiers Liability Act, to ensure the safety of people who access its publicy accessible lands, which includes the cemetry.
.
If this gravestone then went on to kill a child after it had been loosened further in the recent winds, what would you all be saying now?
.
It would be something like "well the council should have tested it" "something must be done". But when they are proactive about it, as they are required to be, and someones creaky old headstone is laid flat, you're up in arms about how awful it is.
.
Should the council be putting OUR money aside to pay to repair what is essentially other peoples private property on public land?
.
Or, as I much prefer, just test it and make it safe as cheaply as possible. After all, they are dead, much like we all will be at some point... do they really care about a lump of rock with their name on?

Pull down anything thats unsafe and if the families want to re-erect them, then that is their concern.

useyourhead wrote:
how do they know they have applied 35kg of force? - have they spent thousands on a machine? - is it calibrated regularly? - is it lateral force? - or do they throw something weighing 35kg? and if they do does that not exceed manual handling limits lol. -

If you buy a plot then in law its your land and I believe the lease lasts for 99 years and then reverts back to the landlord (council)

The landlord is still the owner of the land so has the right and legal obligation to make it safe. All the council are doing is what they need to by law (do you think they want to spend thousands of pounds to make nothing) its the irresponsible tenants, oh sorry theyre usually dead! or maybe people like Laurence who are wrong here.

Somebody commented there hasnt been a lot of people killed or injured by falling gravestones, thats true but people HAVE died and 35kg is maybe the weight of a curious child who decides to climb a heavy stone. Also going back years grave stones never used to be looked at as vandalism targets by teenage scum that now smashes them up every weekend in the uk. Ok I wouldnt mind the idiots being crushed but other people do.

I know many families (my own included) paid in excess of £100 around the turn of the century (1900) for a permanent maintenance agreement with the council. So I hope for those graves the council are securing the stones rather than just pushing them over, as they are contractually obliged to do so.

Can't say I agree with everything (obviously) you say but this is spot on!

One of the funniest things I have seen is a woman from my works fall off a ladder and seriously damage her leg and ankle while changing a bulb using a ladder. Daft women had annoyed me for months with the 'you can't do that re Health and Safety' She thought her job position of Health and Safety officer gave her power. I still think my way of standing on desk that was already directly under the bulb was a much safer idea - health and safety should not replace common sense.
Common sense here is don't push gravestones over and certainly don't play in graveyards covered by weeds that the council have failed to remove although they have took £1000's in maintainance money!

I think you should all come and have a look at Darwen Old Cemetery and see if the laid down headstones have made it safer? It is now full of pot holes and other hazards.
It is a beautiful, scenic place and the Friends have already got 180 headstones re erected. We are researching Darwen's ancestors and finding some really interesting and inspirational people. We need more volunteers to help us.
If you want to have your say come to our public meeting on 22 September at 7.00pm at Bolton Road United Reformed Church, Darwen.
Rosemary - Secretary

Sorry I forgot, we have to pander to the emotional don't we......

reasonable wrote:
I know many families (my own included) paid in excess of £100 around the turn of the century (1900) for a permanent maintenance agreement with the council. So I hope for those graves the council are securing the stones rather than just pushing them over, as they are contractually obliged to do so.

I think you may find that is taking care or the area surrounding and including the plot and the headstone is not included, I may be wrong though so check with the local council involved.

Ps I cannot remember many of these graves being better taken care of than others as it is economical suicide and anyway that was 110 years ago now so did you buy the plot again after the lease expired?

Worth a check though

s_smith wrote:
Oh for flips sake. . In the last 25 years in the UK there have been at least: > 3 children killed > 7 children seriously injured > 2 adults killed > 3 adults seriously injured . all due to falling or insecure headstones. . i say at least because that is as far as I could be bothered to search for on google on the matter. . The council has a legal duty under Occupiers Liability Act, to ensure the safety of people who access its publicy accessible lands, which includes the cemetry. . If this gravestone then went on to kill a child after it had been loosened further in the recent winds, what would you all be saying now? . It would be something like "well the council should have tested it" "something must be done". But when they are proactive about it, as they are required to be, and someones creaky old headstone is laid flat, you're up in arms about how awful it is. . Should the council be putting OUR money aside to pay to repair what is essentially other peoples private property on public land? . Or, as I much prefer, just test it and make it safe as cheaply as possible. After all, they are dead, much like we all will be at some point... do they really care about a lump of rock with their name on? Pull down anything thats unsafe and if the families want to re-erect them, then that is their concern.

Oh won't you please think of the children.
406 deaths from lawn mowers in 2006. Also on Google.

I often wonder where we buried our common sense ?

barryinthailand wrote:

useyourhead wrote: how do they know they have applied 35kg of force? - have they spent thousands on a machine? - is it calibrated regularly? - is it lateral force? - or do they throw something weighing 35kg? and if they do does that not exceed manual handling limits lol. -

If you buy a plot then in law its your land and I believe the lease lasts for 99 years and then reverts back to the landlord (council) The landlord is still the owner of the land so has the right and legal obligation to make it safe. All the council are doing is what they need to by law (do you think they want to spend thousands of pounds to make nothing) its the irresponsible tenants, oh sorry theyre usually dead! or maybe people like Laurence who are wrong here. Somebody commented there hasnt been a lot of people killed or injured by falling gravestones, thats true but people HAVE died and 35kg is maybe the weight of a curious child who decides to climb a heavy stone. Also going back years grave stones never used to be looked at as vandalism targets by teenage scum that now smashes them up every weekend in the uk. Ok I wouldnt mind the idiots being crushed but other people do.

1. I was being sarcastic lol.
-
2. why quote me then not answer my questions?
-
3. As I said earlier, i have never seen the point in these 'monuments', and therefore don't give a stuff if they fix them, knock them over or grind them up to line thier driveways, but that's only my humble opinion!

barryinthailand wrote:

reasonable wrote: I know many families (my own included) paid in excess of £100 around the turn of the century (1900) for a permanent maintenance agreement with the council. So I hope for those graves the council are securing the stones rather than just pushing them over, as they are contractually obliged to do so.

I think you may find that is taking care or the area surrounding and including the plot and the headstone is not included, I may be wrong though so check with the local council involved. Ps I cannot remember many of these graves being better taken care of than others as it is economical suicide and anyway that was 110 years ago now so did you buy the plot again after the lease expired? Worth a check though

Not sure about the headstone thing, I will check but the agreement/contract is a permanent one, I know that sounds good value but £100 was a massive amount of money in 1900. I still have the contract somewhere I'll dig it out and check the specifics.

Under an unsafe headstone Ken

Ah, yes but common sense 'died' and became a resident of any graveyard you care to name .... What a world we live in, when people have to find an excuse to 'play' in graveyards ... You can just imagine it can't you? Say, in America and the world famous Redwood's ... in a national park somewhere. People being banned from going in a forested area because 'a tree, which has stood for hundreds of years, but because it's big and tall may fall on you so you can't go in there anymore, sorry' ... or being told not to play on the beach because the sea is dangerous ... Something only becomes dangerous if you deliberately don't observe the common sense things ... like don't pick up or play with broken glass (tell that to the scores of children in the streets in Darwen who seem to think it's funny throwing it at passerbys, they do it because they know it's sharp or they'd be throwing fluffy bunnies or something soft wouldn't they? H/S would be far better tackling obvious dangers like that!) ... but common sense died, and is buried in the same graveyard as reported. It has failed it's 'toppling test' because it's a danger to the people at H & S because they don't like people to know or even possess common sense ie enjoy things in life and make their own minds about what is dangerous.

.

Next crossing the road will be banned because it's a risk to someone's safety ... A car may hit you, but what about all those sensible safety adverts in the early 70s that taught children how to be responsible at the roadside in a very plain, very understandable way. Oh, wait! Forgot! People like those in H & S said 'no we can't have that, because it's frightening children because it shows Tufty getting knocked over' but hang on, children knew it wasn't real because of it being a stuffed puppet/animation ...

.

But those in H & S, who also like to dictate people cannot put Xmas decorations up in an office (it happened as far back as 1984 at the old Mullards sight that same year) because it was a 'fire risk' really need to seriously examine their place in this world and why they need to dicate to people who can blinking well see if something is safe or not. If they don't then they are acting at their sole discretion ie will get hurt, let them get on with it. Common sense was then replaced with stupidity masquerading under the guise of health and safety. Used to be quite simple, about fire exits, first aid, how to get out of your office in a fire/bomb alert and so on.

.

How about a 'topple test' carried out on the health and safety people? Because they may fall on you at any given notice and without any advance warning.

rozdarwen wrote:
Come and do something about it. Friends of Darwen Cemetery have a working party every other Saturday. Next one 11 September at 10.00. Contact us on www.darwencemetery.o rg.uk. Rosemary - Secretary

sounds divine!
-
I would prefer not to be overfriendly with any cemetary though, if i'm honest!
-
I hope to stay as far away from one as possible.

barryinthailand wrote:
Under an unsafe headstone Ken

PMSL

Safe or unsafe, it wouldn't surprise me.

useyourhead wrote:

rozdarwen wrote: Come and do something about it. Friends of Darwen Cemetery have a working party every other Saturday. Next one 11 September at 10.00. Contact us on www.darwencemetery.o rg.uk. Rosemary - Secretary

sounds divine! - I would prefer not to be overfriendly with any cemetary though, if i'm honest! - I hope to stay as far away from one as possible.

A conscious person will choose Breath over Death. Be Conscious!!!! Useyourhead.

IF WE CAN EMOTE with DEATH then surely, we can feel this Breath.

Yes, but BuckoTheMoose, how many of those were people killed and injured by other peopled lawn mowers?
.
As I said, the council have a liability to ensure that people arn't killed or injured by these things, much the way that a shop has a liability to ensure that rickety shelves wont fall on someone.
.
These things are old, in an area maintained by the public purse and are monuments to people long since dead.
.
Yes, think of the children. Hark. Outrage. And normally I would agree that using child safety is just an excuse. However its not just child safety, its everyones safety.
.
As I said, you would all soon be complaining if this article was about someone killed or injured by a falling folly to rotten bones.

useyourhead wrote:

rozdarwen wrote:
Come and do something about it. Friends of Darwen Cemetery have a working party every other Saturday. Next one 11 September at 10.00. Contact us on www.darwencemetery.o rg.uk. Rosemary - Secretary

sounds divine!
-
I would prefer not to be overfriendly with any cemetary though, if i'm honest!
-
I hope to stay as far away from one as possible.

Sometimes, the dead can be better company than the living.

happycyclist wrote:

useyourhead wrote:

rozdarwen wrote: Come and do something about it. Friends of Darwen Cemetery have a working party every other Saturday. Next one 11 September at 10.00. Contact us on www.darwencemetery.o rg.uk. Rosemary - Secretary

sounds divine! - I would prefer not to be overfriendly with any cemetary though, if i'm honest! - I hope to stay as far away from one as possible.

Sometimes, the dead can be better company than the living.

I think you may need new friends! lol

A Darener wrote:

past it wrote: Darwen old cemetery is a mess, the council should be ashamed of themselves. all the money that has been wasted on roundabout "works of art", whitebirke is just a weed infested mess. The council was quick to take peoples money for these graves, if vandals had smashed the grave stones no doubt some counciler would be ranting and raving about the youth of today. People have paid for these stones the council should have to pay for the damage that has been done.

Although Darwen cemetery is a mess, "The Friends of Darwen Cemetery" (see their website) are a group of volunteers working tremendously hard to reinstate the cemetery. To make it a fit place for the thousands of our ancestors both rich and poor who without them we would not exist. The least we can do for them is honour their memory by looking after their final resting place.

Well done - Give me a contact number as my mum is there - I will volunteer to help! - my mums grave-stone was less than 3 foot high and less than 20 years old and yet they still toppled it over so we had to find £400 between us to have it re-errected! (Burocrausy gone mad!) this would never have happened 10/20 years ago - what a sad world this is becoming! (bet they don't enter the foreigner's cemeteries situated in our country and get away with this!)

To workaholic and anybody else willing to help............
rozdarwen wrote: Come and do something about it. Friends of Darwen Cemetery have a working party every other Saturday. Next one 11 September at 10.00. Contact us on www.darwencemetery.o rg.uk. Rosemary - Secretary