Blackburn's oldest grammar school QEGS bids to become free (From Lancashire Telegraph)

Joseph Yossarian wrote:
One suspects from the uninformed derogatory comments of the union that the QEGS teachers are not in his union. Perhaps the authorities should be asking if there is a direct link between union activity and school performance.

Joseph Yossarian wrote:
One suspects from the uninformed derogatory comments of the union that the QEGS teachers are not in his union.

Perhaps the authorities should be asking if there is a direct link between union activity and school performance.

Noiticer wrote:
I suspect QEGS are milking the system. Perhaps they are struggling to find enough pupils to pay their fees so are now looking to the state for funding. When the political pendulum swings leftwards in the future, as it will inevitably do, QEGS will become just another state school having to take pupils of all abilities and backgrounds regardless. I wonder how its exam results fare then? Free schools are a passing political fad which may last ten or twenty years but their end will come.

Excluded again wrote:
I run a business. If my sales start falling, can I please apply to the government to pay my customers bills for them?

Excluded again wrote:
I run a business. If my sales start falling, can I please apply to the government to pay my customers bills for them?

Interocitor wrote:
"It comes as pupil numbers fell from a high of 1,200 in 1997 to 478 this school year"

Nice way to get us taxpayers to bail out what is obviously a failing business.

OldBlack wrote:
I believe Jeremy Gorick - Chairman of Governors - sends his children to Bolton School. Why does he not send them to QEGS?

Excluded again wrote:
I run a business. If my sales start falling, can I please apply to the government to pay my customers bills for them?

OldBlack wrote:
I believe Jeremy Gorick - Chairman of Governors - sends his children to Bolton School. Why does he not send them to QEGS?

OldBlack wrote:
I believe Jeremy Gorick - Chairman of Governors - sends his children to Bolton School. Why does he not send them to QEGS?

Hilarion wrote:
That's his decision I guess - though I agree that that is very odd if it is true. The present parents might feel a little concerned about opening the doors to mixed ability, but not half as much as they will be concerned about the 'social' mix.

mellormoo wrote:

Hilarion wrote:
That's his decision I guess - though I agree that that is very odd if it is true. The present parents might feel a little concerned about opening the doors to mixed ability, but not half as much as they will be concerned about the 'social' mix.

If you go take a look at QEGS you will find there is already a wide social mix. Many parents have gone without fancy holidays, cars and the like to ensure their kids get a decent education. What is the alternative in Blackburn?

Paintbrush wrote:
What bothers me is that Qegs obviously can't run a successful business receiving a £10,200 fee per pupil, how are they going to manage with only £4,500 per pupil from the Government?

Paintbrush wrote:
What bothers me is that Qegs obviously can't run a successful business receiving a £10,200 fee per pupil, how are they going to manage with only £4,500 per pupil from the Government?

Jack Herer wrote:

Paintbrush wrote:
What bothers me is that Qegs obviously can't run a successful business receiving a £10,200 fee per pupil, how are they going to manage with only £4,500 per pupil from the Government?

They can run a successful business.

It's just that in a run down northern town like Blackburn, during the worst financial crisis in most people's lives, customers able to pay £10,200 per pupil are few and far between.

You need to go back to school and do your maths it seems - preferably a good school like QEGS - they'd have more money with this change, not less. They currently have 478 kids at £10,200. They are aiming for 1100 kids at £4,500. More kids paying less, earns more than less kids paying more.

Are you strange posters all disgruntled parents who want QEGS to stay fee paying and posh or something? I genuinely can't work out your agenda.

oldblacktoo wrote:

Paintbrush wrote:
What bothers me is that Qegs obviously can't run a successful business receiving a £10,200 fee per pupil, how are they going to manage with only £4,500 per pupil from the Government?

fair point
but as an old black as well , it is shocking that the numbers have dropped so dramatically from 1400+ to 400 in 10 years. I know it is expensive and times are hard but there are lots of bursary places at QEGS and the other private day schools locally (Bury Bolton Westholme) are oversubscribed. If the fee paying parents are voting with their feet why will it do any better with state funding
If it a school fails in private or state sector it has still failed

mellormoo wrote:

Hilarion wrote: That's his decision I guess - though I agree that that is very odd if it is true. The present parents might feel a little concerned about opening the doors to mixed ability, but not half as much as they will be concerned about the 'social' mix.

If you go take a look at QEGS you will find there is already a wide social mix. Many parents have gone without fancy holidays, cars and the like to ensure their kids get a decent education. What is the alternative in Blackburn?

Jack Herer wrote:

oldblacktoo wrote:

Paintbrush wrote:
What bothers me is that Qegs obviously can't run a successful business receiving a £10,200 fee per pupil, how are they going to manage with only £4,500 per pupil from the Government?

fair point
but as an old black as well , it is shocking that the numbers have dropped so dramatically from 1400+ to 400 in 10 years. I know it is expensive and times are hard but there are lots of bursary places at QEGS and the other private day schools locally (Bury Bolton Westholme) are oversubscribed. If the fee paying parents are voting with their feet why will it do any better with state funding
If it a school fails in private or state sector it has still failed

But the definition for failure are completely different for private or state sector schools, so they both haven't failed the same.

A state school fails it's pupils. A private school fails it's bank.

Let's be honest QEGS probably isn't helped by location either. From it's inception to the glory mill years of Blackburn, it's site was prime real estate for the town. Now you couldn't say the same thing. Not by a long chalk.

These things count unfortunately for parents who drive Range Rovers.

Out of interest; will you cry the day that QEGS is no longer exclusive and posh? If it makes you feel any better, I'm guessing it's had far more years in it's illustrious history as a free grammer school, than it ever has as a fee paying private school.

Paintbrush wrote:

Jack Herer wrote:

Paintbrush wrote:
What bothers me is that Qegs obviously can't run a successful business receiving a £10,200 fee per pupil, how are they going to manage with only £4,500 per pupil from the Government?

They can run a successful business.

It's just that in a run down northern town like Blackburn, during the worst financial crisis in most people's lives, customers able to pay £10,200 per pupil are few and far between.

You need to go back to school and do your maths it seems - preferably a good school like QEGS - they'd have more money with this change, not less. They currently have 478 kids at £10,200. They are aiming for 1100 kids at £4,500. More kids paying less, earns more than less kids paying more.

Are you strange posters all disgruntled parents who want QEGS to stay fee paying and posh or something? I genuinely can't work out your agenda.

More children means there will be a need for more teachers. As anyone running a business knows, wages are the biggest cost. I still don't think the figures add up.

oldblacktoo wrote:

Jack Herer wrote:

oldblacktoo wrote:

Paintbrush wrote:
What bothers me is that Qegs obviously can't run a successful business receiving a £10,200 fee per pupil, how are they going to manage with only £4,500 per pupil from the Government?

fair point
but as an old black as well , it is shocking that the numbers have dropped so dramatically from 1400+ to 400 in 10 years. I know it is expensive and times are hard but there are lots of bursary places at QEGS and the other private day schools locally (Bury Bolton Westholme) are oversubscribed. If the fee paying parents are voting with their feet why will it do any better with state funding
If it a school fails in private or state sector it has still failed

But the definition for failure are completely different for private or state sector schools, so they both haven't failed the same.

A state school fails it's pupils. A private school fails it's bank.

Let's be honest QEGS probably isn't helped by location either. From it's inception to the glory mill years of Blackburn, it's site was prime real estate for the town. Now you couldn't say the same thing. Not by a long chalk.

These things count unfortunately for parents who drive Range Rovers.

Out of interest; will you cry the day that QEGS is no longer exclusive and posh? If it makes you feel any better, I'm guessing it's had far more years in it's illustrious history as a free grammer school, than it ever has as a fee paying private school.

I think your range rover comment is probably unhelpful
.I am very aware of the proud history as free grammar school ;
it isn't to become a grammar school again as that implies selective entrance.
I have had little contact with the school since leaving and have no concern about it being exclusive etc..
I was merely pointing out that it hasn't performed well relative to its traditional rivals recently so unless there happen to be an extra 600 kids in Blackburn without a school not sure what the state sector will gain

Jack Herer wrote:

oldblacktoo wrote:

Jack Herer wrote:

oldblacktoo wrote:

Paintbrush wrote:
What bothers me is that Qegs obviously can't run a successful business receiving a £10,200 fee per pupil, how are they going to manage with only £4,500 per pupil from the Government?

fair point
but as an old black as well , it is shocking that the numbers have dropped so dramatically from 1400+ to 400 in 10 years. I know it is expensive and times are hard but there are lots of bursary places at QEGS and the other private day schools locally (Bury Bolton Westholme) are oversubscribed. If the fee paying parents are voting with their feet why will it do any better with state funding
If it a school fails in private or state sector it has still failed

But the definition for failure are completely different for private or state sector schools, so they both haven't failed the same.

A state school fails it's pupils. A private school fails it's bank.

Let's be honest QEGS probably isn't helped by location either. From it's inception to the glory mill years of Blackburn, it's site was prime real estate for the town. Now you couldn't say the same thing. Not by a long chalk.

These things count unfortunately for parents who drive Range Rovers.

Out of interest; will you cry the day that QEGS is no longer exclusive and posh? If it makes you feel any better, I'm guessing it's had far more years in it's illustrious history as a free grammer school, than it ever has as a fee paying private school.

I think your range rover comment is probably unhelpful
.I am very aware of the proud history as free grammar school ;
it isn't to become a grammar school again as that implies selective entrance.
I have had little contact with the school since leaving and have no concern about it being exclusive etc..
I was merely pointing out that it hasn't performed well relative to its traditional rivals recently so unless there happen to be an extra 600 kids in Blackburn without a school not sure what the state sector will gain

Unhelpful doesn't mean untrue unfortunately. It would take a liar to deny the snobbery which exists at that level of society.

Do you remember a school called Everton on Heys Lane? It was like the school off Kes. It was really, really rough. It got closed down - I could be wrong but I think as a secondary it was 88. I happened to work with a lad who was in the final year, and he reckoned he was the only one to get a grade C or above, in any subject, in the whole year. No matter how much money authorities threw at it, it still failed. One nutty Labour incentive had a swimming pool built there - the only school county wide probably. It didn't equate with success however.

My point is that some schools probably shouldn't be saved. I appreciate some people may have had fond memories of the place, but it was probably best that Everton was laid to rest as an educational facility.

So there may not be an extra 600 kids in Blackburn without a school, but there are undoubtedly 600 kids from Blackburn who would benefit massively from an education at QEGS, rather than the school which might not be raising them to their full potential; regardless if that school may struggle to exist in the distant future.

Besides, I couldn't quote you on figures but I'd strongly suspect that Blackburn has a higher than average birth rate as well, so that 600, over the stepped yearly intake, could very well be the increase in the town anyway and that argument could be irrelevant.

Look, I think we would both prefer it if QEGS could just go back to being a grammar school, with purely selective entry. I personally feel that would be the best thing for education in Blackburn. How are we supposed to compete with the world if our most capable students aren't targeted for their worth to society?

Unfortunately with the crazy systems of education we have in place - everyone treated the same, everyone allowed in every school, free schools, academies, etc - that dream of competing with countries like Germany or Singapore seems difficult.

So the best we have is the likes of QEGS opening it's doors to more.

Phil Simpson wrote:
It wasn't Everton that had a swimming pool tagged on but Shadsworth High which Everton merged with to form Queens Park High incidentally.

The County Borough of Blackburn had a somewhat utopian idea of placing a leisure centre & a library next to its high schools. Being a former secondary modern, Shadsworth had been built as an 11-15 school so it was extended for the raising of the school leaving age & a leisure centre, including a swimming pool, & library were also built.

The following year, The County Borough of Blackburn was absorbed into Lancashire & the idea was shelved, presumably on cost grounds since no local authority would be able to afford such a scheme across the board.

To be honest, Blackburn couldn't really afford the first of these schemes. The buildings were that poorly built that they were in a far worse state by the time the school closed than the original building which opened fifteen years earlier.

tiojo wrote:
It's good to see a private fee paying school established to allow well off parents to buy privilege for their children failing to attract business. Well done the parents of Blackburn.

midas wrote:

tiojo wrote:
It's good to see a private fee paying school established to allow well off parents to buy privilege for their children failing to attract business. Well done the parents of Blackburn.

What are you saying, the parents of (children in) Blackburn should be congratulated for not wanting to provide the best opportunities for their children? only in Blackburn!

scouper wrote:
It's a sad reality today that too many businesses producing top quality products are struggling. QEGS is no exception & this is a brave & bold move by them to ensure their business (& top quality service) survives.

Who benefits from their survival? WE DO, OUR TOWN DOES!

I don't understand why anyone would not support this.

Phil Simpson wrote:
The first comment managed to pack one of the most succinct messages into the fewest words of any posting.

St Wilfrids is a highly successful mixed ability school complete with Sixth Form.

The school has excellent exam results yet nobody comments on them being compromised by accepting applicants of all abilities.

One could argue that it has always been comprehensive so expectations have never been as great as QEGS. However Simon Corns has said that QEGS isn't as selective as it once was. Furthermore common sense should mean that subsequent exam results will be viewed as those of a mixed ability school.

Hilarion wrote:

scouper wrote:
It's a sad reality today that too many businesses producing top quality products are struggling. QEGS is no exception & this is a brave & bold move by them to ensure their business (& top quality service) survives.

Who benefits from their survival? WE DO, OUR TOWN DOES!

I don't understand why anyone would not support this.

It is true that this is a move to ensure that the business survives, but what will happen to the character of the school? There are ramifications to taking in a broad ability range with no exam to select entrants.

scouper wrote:

Hilarion wrote:

scouper wrote:
It's a sad reality today that too many businesses producing top quality products are struggling. QEGS is no exception & this is a brave & bold move by them to ensure their business (& top quality service) survives.

Who benefits from their survival? WE DO, OUR TOWN DOES!

I don't understand why anyone would not support this.

It is true that this is a move to ensure that the business survives, but what will happen to the character of the school? There are ramifications to taking in a broad ability range with no exam to select entrants.

And if the school goes under, where does that leave it's character?

Circumstances change and the fittest survive. Hopefully the school's character will also survive.

Phil Simpson wrote:
The local schools are damned. If QEGS gets Free School status, they will lose pupils, if it doesn't & it goes down the pan, it will put pressure on them due to having to take in students from a defunct school.

lencho wrote:
Having failed their entrance exam twice over 45 years ago I am really pleased to hear of QEGS demise.
Hopefully in the near future all the staff can be made redundant & the site sold for housing.
Retribution may take its time but it usually always arrives in one’s lifetime.
Good riddance QEGS .

Hilarion wrote:
Where are these schools with massive budget cuts and redundancies? Do you mean the local authority schools with interactive whiteboards and teacher laptops which have had millions of pounds of rebuilding money thrown at them? Those schools?

Good Golly Miss Molly wrote:
We sent our kids to QEGS but removed them after a few years as were really unhappy with it. Many did at the time and it appears this continued. Mr Corns was a disagreeable man who seemed unable to see the problems looming on the horizon.

I can't understand why they haven't just reverted to being a free grammar where they select pupils thus giving the talented and gifted a real leg up - of all backgrounds. People kill themselves to get their kids in Clitheroe or Lancaster so they could have easily have found the extra 600 pupils from across Lancashire.

rogerthecabinboy wrote:

Hilarion wrote:
Where are these schools with massive budget cuts and redundancies? Do you mean the local authority schools with interactive whiteboards and teacher laptops which have had millions of pounds of rebuilding money thrown at them? Those schools?

Didn't Beardwood have to close and according to the LET, last year, St Mary's had to make some redundancies due to reduced funding I believe

Jack Herer wrote:

Phil Simpson wrote:
It wasn't Everton that had a swimming pool tagged on but Shadsworth High which Everton merged with to form Queens Park High incidentally.

The County Borough of Blackburn had a somewhat utopian idea of placing a leisure centre & a library next to its high schools. Being a former secondary modern, Shadsworth had been built as an 11-15 school so it was extended for the raising of the school leaving age & a leisure centre, including a swimming pool, & library were also built.

The following year, The County Borough of Blackburn was absorbed into Lancashire & the idea was shelved, presumably on cost grounds since no local authority would be able to afford such a scheme across the board.

To be honest, Blackburn couldn't really afford the first of these schemes. The buildings were that poorly built that they were in a far worse state by the time the school closed than the original building which opened fifteen years earlier.

Everton definitely had a swimming pool. I went swimming there. Or canoeing at an outside shot bizarrely; I'm guessing when they got desperate to use the thing.

lencho wrote:
Having failed their entrance exam twice over 45 years ago I am really pleased to hear of QEGS demise.
Hopefully in the near future all the staff can be made redundant & the site sold for housing.
Retribution may take its time but it usually always arrives in one’s lifetime.
Good riddance QEGS .

Hilarion wrote:
Roy - I presume that your final comment is a personal one, not a universal one. I certainly don't agree with it. I hope QEGS succeeds in its new venture. But once its hands are tied on selection, that it is a problem. I agree with Karenlou that academic selection is not the be all and end all, but without it, how can QEGS subsequently ensure that it is populated by committed and diligent parents and pupils? It will not be allowed to cherry pick which even the C of E schools can do (by insisting on parental reference by clergy).

Roy Drage wrote:

lencho wrote: Having failed their entrance exam twice over 45 years ago I am really pleased to hear of QEGS demise. Hopefully in the near future all the staff can be made redundant & the site sold for housing. Retribution may take its time but it usually always arrives in one’s lifetime. Good riddance QEGS .

Unfortunately, I did pass the entrance exam and proceeded to spend 7 miserable years in the care of largely humourless staff and a system of petty rules and perceived elitism. Admittedly, this was the early 80s and things may have changed since, but I for one have no affection for this place. This change will drive the many parents who WANT to pay (for fear of losing kudos) to other fee-paying schools and QEGS will gradually wither on the vine. It doesn't even have competitive facilities anymore, compared to some of BwD's new schools. West Park Road really would make a lovely housing estate with splendid views over the cricket ground and park. No tears will be shed when the bulldozers move in.

OldBlack wrote:
I believe Jeremy Gorick - Chairman of Governors - sends his children to Bolton School. Why does he not send them to QEGS?

Plasticbertrand wrote:
The only people in the Ribble Valley that would be keen on using QEGS would be those in Wilpshire and Mellor, who have a fear that their offsprings are destined for Blackburn schools, as all the Ribble Valley ones are already oversubscribed. We had this discussion at the school gate today and most parents would choose Ribblesdale over QEGS, due to ethnic and safety issues in Blackburn.

rosie+4 wrote:

Plasticbertrand wrote:
The only people in the Ribble Valley that would be keen on using QEGS would be those in Wilpshire and Mellor, who have a fear that their offsprings are destined for Blackburn schools, as all the Ribble Valley ones are already oversubscribed. We had this discussion at the school gate today and most parents would choose Ribblesdale over QEGS, due to ethnic and safety issues in Blackburn.

Using safety and ethnic in the same sentence implying they're both hazardous to the school. A little racist don't you think? A lot of 'ethnic' people value education highly and if these 'ethnic' pupils do end up going it may give the school the boost it needs. The 'ethnic' pupils will gain from being involved in extra-curricular activities and the school will benefit from a potential raise in academic results. See Tauheedul's results if in doubt.

Overall the move is good for all in my view

rogerthecabinboy wrote:

rosie+4 wrote:

Plasticbertrand wrote:
The only people in the Ribble Valley that would be keen on using QEGS would be those in Wilpshire and Mellor, who have a fear that their offsprings are destined for Blackburn schools, as all the Ribble Valley ones are already oversubscribed. We had this discussion at the school gate today and most parents would choose Ribblesdale over QEGS, due to ethnic and safety issues in Blackburn.

Using safety and ethnic in the same sentence implying they're both hazardous to the school. A little racist don't you think? A lot of 'ethnic' people value education highly and if these 'ethnic' pupils do end up going it may give the school the boost it needs. The 'ethnic' pupils will gain from being involved in extra-curricular activities and the school will benefit from a potential raise in academic results. See Tauheedul's results if in doubt.

Overall the move is good for all in my view

If that is the case Qeg's might have to draw a veil over that one - I wonder what school policy might be then?

rosie+4 wrote:

rogerthecabinboy wrote:

rosie+4 wrote:

Plasticbertrand wrote:
The only people in the Ribble Valley that would be keen on using QEGS would be those in Wilpshire and Mellor, who have a fear that their offsprings are destined for Blackburn schools, as all the Ribble Valley ones are already oversubscribed. We had this discussion at the school gate today and most parents would choose Ribblesdale over QEGS, due to ethnic and safety issues in Blackburn.

Using safety and ethnic in the same sentence implying they're both hazardous to the school. A little racist don't you think? A lot of 'ethnic' people value education highly and if these 'ethnic' pupils do end up going it may give the school the boost it needs. The 'ethnic' pupils will gain from being involved in extra-curricular activities and the school will benefit from a potential raise in academic results. See Tauheedul's results if in doubt.

Overall the move is good for all in my view

If that is the case Qeg's might have to draw a veil over that one - I wonder what school policy might be then?

My first point is reiterated by your statement! Nothing further to add.

lencho wrote:
Having failed their entrance exam twice over 45 years ago I am really pleased to hear of QEGS demise.
Hopefully in the near future all the staff can be made redundant & the site sold for housing.
Retribution may take its time but it usually always arrives in one’s lifetime.
Good riddance QEGS .

Jones9 wrote:
Well done and congratulations, Mr Corns!
You have single handedly destroyed one of the best institutions in Lancashire. For the past 500 years, the school survived the Black Plague, Two World Wars, The Great Depression and after just 4 years with you at the reign - IT HAS FAILED - WELL DONE! Hope you're proud. GET RID OF HIM GOVERNORS.

Legal Beagle wrote:
Tax paying teacher

“ … years of upheavel …” That’s upheaval with an `a’.

“ … pull itself out of it's self created mire …” This should be `its’ not `it’s’.

“ … due to it's failure to attract enough …” Ditto

“To finish of; I thought Jack Straw was ridiculous …” It’s `To finish off’, and a comma rather than a semicolon.

“Incidently in our staff room today the concensus was to push this one … “

It’s `Incidentally’ and `consensus’.

Now do you see why people want to send their children to private schools?

See me after class for six of the best!