Rail campaigners call for more trains in Blackburn to Hellifield route

3:00pm Saturday 8th September 2012 in News

RAIL campaigners want to open up East Lancashire to Yorkshire and Scotland by promoting extra trains along a rarely-used route.

Friends of the Blackburn to Hellifield Line (FOBHL) are making the call 50 years to the day that the last regular passenger service between the two locations ceased.

The final train between Blackburn and the North Yorkshire station departed in early September 1962, and now only a single train operates every Sunday.

Supporters of the Friends of Settle to Carlisle Line have also undertaken a major study this year, outlining the benefits of opening a through route between Manchester and Carlisle, via Darwen, Blackburn and Ribble Valley stations.

Peter Brass, of FOBHL and a Clitheroe newsagent, said that the link could be reinstated with minimal outlay for the rail industry.

“The only thing that you would need is a signal on the platform at Hellifield for when the trains arrive from Clitheroe,” he said.

Around half a dozen trains could be run each day, he believes, which if timed correctly could connect with onwards services to Carlisle.

Such a move echoes the efforts of the Skipton East Lancashire Rail Partnership, which aims to reconnect the abandoned line between Colne and North Yorkshire.

And if it is successful it would mirror the reinstatement of the Todmorden Curve, opening up extra services to West Yorkshire and Manchester for East Lancs passengers.

Paul Levet, of FOSCL, added: “Manchester, Bolton, Blackburn and Clitheroe only have connections to the Yorkshire Dales on Sundays during the summer season. A yearly round service would improve this situation.”

And because the track, used by the Sunday service, freight trains and charter operators, is still in place, FOSCL is arguing that it would not require any expensive overhauls.

Mr Levet added: “Clitheroe travellers to Scotland have to change at Blackburn and Preston when they could enjoy a more direct service via the scenic Settle and Carlisle line.

“And travel to Skipton and Leeds from Clitheroe could also be improved by connecting Clitheroe to Hellifield.”The Hellifield line, which also calls from Blackburn, at Ramsgreave and Wilpshire, Langho and Whalley, before Clitheroe, was originally part of the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway.

Comments (17)

3:25pm Sat 8 Sep 12

mavrick says...

I hope they are successful in getting more services on the line, I am surprised these link have not been opened already. I would happily go from Blackburn to Carlisle via Hellifield, Settle, It must be one of the most scenic routes in the country. It has the potential to increase tourism and commuter traffic through the area. If handled properly it will be a winner.
I hope they are successful in getting more services on the line, I am surprised these link have not been opened already. I would happily go from Blackburn to Carlisle via Hellifield, Settle, It must be one of the most scenic routes in the country. It has the potential to increase tourism and commuter traffic through the area. If handled properly it will be a winner. mavrick

3:32pm Sat 8 Sep 12

Michael@ClitheroeSince58 says...

mavrick wrote:
I hope they are successful in getting more services on the line, I am surprised these link have not been opened already. I would happily go from Blackburn to Carlisle via Hellifield, Settle, It must be one of the most scenic routes in the country. It has the potential to increase tourism and commuter traffic through the area. If handled properly it will be a winner.
Totally agree the chance to be able to get all the way up to Carlisle would be fantastic for everyone.
[quote][p][bold]mavrick[/bold] wrote: I hope they are successful in getting more services on the line, I am surprised these link have not been opened already. I would happily go from Blackburn to Carlisle via Hellifield, Settle, It must be one of the most scenic routes in the country. It has the potential to increase tourism and commuter traffic through the area. If handled properly it will be a winner.[/p][/quote]Totally agree the chance to be able to get all the way up to Carlisle would be fantastic for everyone. Michael@ClitheroeSince58

4:23pm Sat 8 Sep 12

Reality50 says...

Seems senseless this line has one train a week.While we wait for the Colne to Skipton line to get the nod then at least this would provide some alternative.It would benefit Lancashire as well as North Yorks and Cumbria.Everything is in place even for an hourly service so time it was open 7 days a week.
Seems senseless this line has one train a week.While we wait for the Colne to Skipton line to get the nod then at least this would provide some alternative.It would benefit Lancashire as well as North Yorks and Cumbria.Everything is in place even for an hourly service so time it was open 7 days a week. Reality50

4:26pm Sat 8 Sep 12

Reality50 says...

I suspect the problem is the unambitious Northern Rail company who would fear making a loss on the line however if you extended the Todmorden Curve route further than Accrington to include Hellifield then problem solved.
I suspect the problem is the unambitious Northern Rail company who would fear making a loss on the line however if you extended the Todmorden Curve route further than Accrington to include Hellifield then problem solved. Reality50

4:42pm Sat 8 Sep 12

shytalk says...

Many people in Clitheroe are now looking to leave due to the stupid governments policy of wrecking rural places with large scale vandalism they call developement.. The area around Settle is becoming a very attractive proposition for many wishing to get away from the destruction of the Clitheroe area and the return of a rail connection through to Settle would be very helpful.
Many people in Clitheroe are now looking to leave due to the stupid governments policy of wrecking rural places with large scale vandalism they call developement.. The area around Settle is becoming a very attractive proposition for many wishing to get away from the destruction of the Clitheroe area and the return of a rail connection through to Settle would be very helpful. shytalk

5:50pm Sat 8 Sep 12

lcjfm03 says...

shytalk wrote:
Many people in Clitheroe are now looking to leave due to the stupid governments policy of wrecking rural places with large scale vandalism they call developement.. The area around Settle is becoming a very attractive proposition for many wishing to get away from the destruction of the Clitheroe area and the return of a rail connection through to Settle would be very helpful.
What an ar*e!
[quote][p][bold]shytalk[/bold] wrote: Many people in Clitheroe are now looking to leave due to the stupid governments policy of wrecking rural places with large scale vandalism they call developement.. The area around Settle is becoming a very attractive proposition for many wishing to get away from the destruction of the Clitheroe area and the return of a rail connection through to Settle would be very helpful.[/p][/quote]What an ar*e! lcjfm03

6:45pm Sat 8 Sep 12

Noiticer says...

Whilst everybody would like to see a service restored the subsidy required would be relatively high as such a service would never make a profit. Remember, the service closed before the Beeching Report was published which shows how uneconomic the service beyond Clitheroe actually was The line was really built as through route so that the L&Y and Midland could run joint expresses to Glasgow from Manchester in competition to those on the West Coast. They could never compete on speed (as any reintroduced service couldn't) so ran Pullman coaches initially.
Any new service would have to regular to make it attractive - the idea that many people living beyond Heelifield would use it to reach Manchester Airport is pie in the sky as many flights are at inconvenient times. Also waiting facilities at Hellifield are minimal with no inside space or toilets available so changing trains there wouldn't be a very attractive proposition. Travelling to Leeds from Clitheroe would still be quicker via Blackburn.
So, unless the supporters of this campaign can come up with some viable plans then the obstacles are still weighed against them.
Whilst everybody would like to see a service restored the subsidy required would be relatively high as such a service would never make a profit. Remember, the service closed before the Beeching Report was published which shows how uneconomic the service beyond Clitheroe actually was The line was really built as through route so that the L&Y and Midland could run joint expresses to Glasgow from Manchester in competition to those on the West Coast. They could never compete on speed (as any reintroduced service couldn't) so ran Pullman coaches initially. Any new service would have to regular to make it attractive - the idea that many people living beyond Heelifield would use it to reach Manchester Airport is pie in the sky as many flights are at inconvenient times. Also waiting facilities at Hellifield are minimal with no inside space or toilets available so changing trains there wouldn't be a very attractive proposition. Travelling to Leeds from Clitheroe would still be quicker via Blackburn. So, unless the supporters of this campaign can come up with some viable plans then the obstacles are still weighed against them. Noiticer

6:56pm Sat 8 Sep 12

ROBERTSLUMDWELLER123 says...

shytalk wrote:
Many people in Clitheroe are now looking to leave due to the stupid governments policy of wrecking rural places with large scale vandalism they call developement.. The area around Settle is becoming a very attractive proposition for many wishing to get away from the destruction of the Clitheroe area and the return of a rail connection through to Settle would be very helpful.
Lier!!!
[quote][p][bold]shytalk[/bold] wrote: Many people in Clitheroe are now looking to leave due to the stupid governments policy of wrecking rural places with large scale vandalism they call developement.. The area around Settle is becoming a very attractive proposition for many wishing to get away from the destruction of the Clitheroe area and the return of a rail connection through to Settle would be very helpful.[/p][/quote]Lier!!! ROBERTSLUMDWELLER123

12:17am Sun 9 Sep 12

Reality50 says...

What you would need to do is operate a Skipton to Manchester Victoria service via the Todmorden Curve via Hellfield Cltheroe and then veering towards Accrington rather than Blackburn then via Burnley Mcr Rd,Todmorden Rochdale and Manc Vic.There is a new Manc Vic to Accrington service being introduced in 2014 via the Tod Curve so all you need to do is extend it to Skipton and job done as you change trains at Skipton not Hellifield in that case even though Hellifield would be a stop on that route.
What you would need to do is operate a Skipton to Manchester Victoria service via the Todmorden Curve via Hellfield Cltheroe and then veering towards Accrington rather than Blackburn then via Burnley Mcr Rd,Todmorden Rochdale and Manc Vic.There is a new Manc Vic to Accrington service being introduced in 2014 via the Tod Curve so all you need to do is extend it to Skipton and job done as you change trains at Skipton not Hellifield in that case even though Hellifield would be a stop on that route. Reality50

1:53am Sun 9 Sep 12

2 for 5p says...

This is a example of infeetructure due to ribble valleyhouse building.
Yes bring it on.
This is a example of infeetructure due to ribble valleyhouse building. Yes bring it on. 2 for 5p

7:38am Sun 9 Sep 12

Excluded again says...

Noiticer wrote:
Whilst everybody would like to see a service restored the subsidy required would be relatively high as such a service would never make a profit. Remember, the service closed before the Beeching Report was published which shows how uneconomic the service beyond Clitheroe actually was The line was really built as through route so that the L&Y and Midland could run joint expresses to Glasgow from Manchester in competition to those on the West Coast. They could never compete on speed (as any reintroduced service couldn't) so ran Pullman coaches initially.
Any new service would have to regular to make it attractive - the idea that many people living beyond Heelifield would use it to reach Manchester Airport is pie in the sky as many flights are at inconvenient times. Also waiting facilities at Hellifield are minimal with no inside space or toilets available so changing trains there wouldn't be a very attractive proposition. Travelling to Leeds from Clitheroe would still be quicker via Blackburn.
So, unless the supporters of this campaign can come up with some viable plans then the obstacles are still weighed against them.
The reality is that the line would survive as the Settle to Carlisle line does on tourism.

The world has changed since 1962 and there are many short rail lines around the country which have re-opened and survive as tourist and pleasure lines. A line connected to the national network could benefit from all this business plus a small amount of commuting/business traffic.
[quote][p][bold]Noiticer[/bold] wrote: Whilst everybody would like to see a service restored the subsidy required would be relatively high as such a service would never make a profit. Remember, the service closed before the Beeching Report was published which shows how uneconomic the service beyond Clitheroe actually was The line was really built as through route so that the L&Y and Midland could run joint expresses to Glasgow from Manchester in competition to those on the West Coast. They could never compete on speed (as any reintroduced service couldn't) so ran Pullman coaches initially. Any new service would have to regular to make it attractive - the idea that many people living beyond Heelifield would use it to reach Manchester Airport is pie in the sky as many flights are at inconvenient times. Also waiting facilities at Hellifield are minimal with no inside space or toilets available so changing trains there wouldn't be a very attractive proposition. Travelling to Leeds from Clitheroe would still be quicker via Blackburn. So, unless the supporters of this campaign can come up with some viable plans then the obstacles are still weighed against them.[/p][/quote]The reality is that the line would survive as the Settle to Carlisle line does on tourism. The world has changed since 1962 and there are many short rail lines around the country which have re-opened and survive as tourist and pleasure lines. A line connected to the national network could benefit from all this business plus a small amount of commuting/business traffic. Excluded again

8:52am Sun 9 Sep 12

Noiticer says...

The reality is that the lservice would not survive on tourism alone. The Settle-Carlisle is a well known scenic route which attracts tourists but it also links the Yorkshire urban areas with Carlisle and Scotland plus the Dales towns and villages with the large cities to the south.The Hellifield hasn't got the same market potential - the Dales' population is Leeds orientated and potential Scottish bound passengers south of Blackburn would naturally choose to travel via Preston northwards as that is quicker and, perhaps, even cheaper. The case for reopening the service to Hellifield and beyond has to be rooted in reality not fanciful idealism.
The reality is that the lservice would not survive on tourism alone. The Settle-Carlisle is a well known scenic route which attracts tourists but it also links the Yorkshire urban areas with Carlisle and Scotland plus the Dales towns and villages with the large cities to the south.The Hellifield hasn't got the same market potential - the Dales' population is Leeds orientated and potential Scottish bound passengers south of Blackburn would naturally choose to travel via Preston northwards as that is quicker and, perhaps, even cheaper. The case for reopening the service to Hellifield and beyond has to be rooted in reality not fanciful idealism. Noiticer

6:48pm Sun 9 Sep 12

deltic08 says...

Too much negativity here people. This is a logical short extension of Manchester-Clitheroe services to an interchange at Hellifield at minimal cost as all infrastructure is present, even for reversing at Hellilield. It is not fanciful in any way and should be supported by all. Admittedly facilities at Hellifield are sparse but if connections with Carlisle trains are coordinated then waiting time would be minimal. Reverse trains at Hellifield and continue to Skipton for much better connections to Leeds. Eight 2-hourly services a day would sort it. Who knows how successful it would be without trying it?

The DfT needs to put this in the forthcoming Northern Franchise bid as an experimental service for (say) 12 months to determine usage. Jack Straw MP is very supportive of the proposal. Lobbying should be directed through him.

Dont forget, we only have a few more years of affordable oil remaining then we will all be using electrified trains!!
Too much negativity here people. This is a logical short extension of Manchester-Clitheroe services to an interchange at Hellifield at minimal cost as all infrastructure is present, even for reversing at Hellilield. It is not fanciful in any way and should be supported by all. Admittedly facilities at Hellifield are sparse but if connections with Carlisle trains are coordinated then waiting time would be minimal. Reverse trains at Hellifield and continue to Skipton for much better connections to Leeds. Eight 2-hourly services a day would sort it. Who knows how successful it would be without trying it? The DfT needs to put this in the forthcoming Northern Franchise bid as an experimental service for (say) 12 months to determine usage. Jack Straw MP is very supportive of the proposal. Lobbying should be directed through him. Dont forget, we only have a few more years of affordable oil remaining then we will all be using electrified trains!! deltic08

6:49pm Sun 9 Sep 12

deltic08 says...

Too much negativity here people. This is a logical short extension of Manchester-Clitheroe services to an interchange at Hellifield at minimal cost as all infrastructure is present, even for reversing at Hellilield. It is not fanciful in any way and should be supported by all. Admittedly facilities at Hellifield are sparse but if connections with Carlisle trains are coordinated then waiting time would be minimal. Reverse trains at Hellifield and continue to Skipton for much better connections to Leeds. Eight 2-hourly services a day would sort it. Who knows how successful it would be without trying it?

The DfT needs to put this in the forthcoming Northern Franchise bid as an experimental service for (say) 12 months to determine usage. Jack Straw MP is very supportive of the proposal. Lobbying should be directed through him.

Dont forget, we only have a few more years of affordable oil remaining then we will all be using electrified trains!!
Too much negativity here people. This is a logical short extension of Manchester-Clitheroe services to an interchange at Hellifield at minimal cost as all infrastructure is present, even for reversing at Hellilield. It is not fanciful in any way and should be supported by all. Admittedly facilities at Hellifield are sparse but if connections with Carlisle trains are coordinated then waiting time would be minimal. Reverse trains at Hellifield and continue to Skipton for much better connections to Leeds. Eight 2-hourly services a day would sort it. Who knows how successful it would be without trying it? The DfT needs to put this in the forthcoming Northern Franchise bid as an experimental service for (say) 12 months to determine usage. Jack Straw MP is very supportive of the proposal. Lobbying should be directed through him. Dont forget, we only have a few more years of affordable oil remaining then we will all be using electrified trains!! deltic08

6:03pm Mon 10 Sep 12

s_smith says...

A logical short extension? It will add an extra hour on to a units travel time (23 mins there, 10mins turnaround, 23 minutes back).
.
It is 1hr 48 mins Carlisle to Hellifield, and about 1hr 33mins Hellifield to Manchester Victoria (3hrs 21mins, assuming a direct service Carlisle to Victoria). Yet via the WCML to Manchester it is around 2hrs, depending on the service used.
.
Or lets look at it another way: Clitheroe to Carlisle. 2hrs 21mins via Blackburn and Preston. Going via the S&C it is around the same time, assuming a direct service, which it wont be. And lets think about the number of services calling at Hellifield. To get to Carlisle before 9am from Clitheroe will be impossible with the current timetable - but lets not forget that its not just a case of "getting another train to stop there"; where will that train come from, where will it be going to, what service is it running next, is there enough time in the timetable for it to stop there and continue its service pattern.
.
Im sorry, it sounds like a lovely idea, but what good will it serve? None.
A logical short extension? It will add an extra hour on to a units travel time (23 mins there, 10mins turnaround, 23 minutes back). . It is 1hr 48 mins Carlisle to Hellifield, and about 1hr 33mins Hellifield to Manchester Victoria (3hrs 21mins, assuming a direct service Carlisle to Victoria). Yet via the WCML to Manchester it is around 2hrs, depending on the service used. . Or lets look at it another way: Clitheroe to Carlisle. 2hrs 21mins via Blackburn and Preston. Going via the S&C it is around the same time, assuming a direct service, which it wont be. And lets think about the number of services calling at Hellifield. To get to Carlisle before 9am from Clitheroe will be impossible with the current timetable - but lets not forget that its not just a case of "getting another train to stop there"; where will that train come from, where will it be going to, what service is it running next, is there enough time in the timetable for it to stop there and continue its service pattern. . Im sorry, it sounds like a lovely idea, but what good will it serve? None. s_smith

12:27am Tue 11 Sep 12

deltic08 says...

Oh dear S Smith, a prime example of negativity I mentioned. Had it been up to people like you, trains would not have been extended beyond Blackburn to Clitheroe in the first place.That involves a 22 minute journey each way and turnround time but it still happened at far greater cost than extending to Hellifield as station reinstatement was required also. The addition of a block signal between Clitheroe and Hellifield would be advantageous, but not absolutely necessary.

How many care if a journey to Carlisle via Hellifield is longer than via Preston. On this route, to travel is far better than to arrive. If you live in Appleby or Settle or even Skipton, this would be the fastest way to Manchester.

As 270,000 used Clitheroe station last year, up 11% from the previous year, who knows how many more would use it if they could travel north as well.

It is still logical as Hellifield is only 11 miles beyond Clitheroe and a three way junction providing opportunity and connectivity to travel in a greener mode than by road. Yes, another unit and crew will be required but after electrification of Manchester-Earlestow
n in December 2013 there will be at least 9 cascaded units available and many more in 2016 when the whole Lancashire triangle is completed.

Of course, the professionals would need to look at costings, rostering and timetabling but that doesn't stop the user group pressing ahead with their campaign to raise awareness of the possibility. A revenue/demand forecast would confirm but cost £10-12,000 or just under £1 per head of population of Clitheroe.

Good luck to Peter Brass and his group. They show foresight.
Oh dear S Smith, a prime example of negativity I mentioned. Had it been up to people like you, trains would not have been extended beyond Blackburn to Clitheroe in the first place.That involves a 22 minute journey each way and turnround time but it still happened at far greater cost than extending to Hellifield as station reinstatement was required also. The addition of a block signal between Clitheroe and Hellifield would be advantageous, but not absolutely necessary. How many care if a journey to Carlisle via Hellifield is longer than via Preston. On this route, to travel is far better than to arrive. If you live in Appleby or Settle or even Skipton, this would be the fastest way to Manchester. As 270,000 used Clitheroe station last year, up 11% from the previous year, who knows how many more would use it if they could travel north as well. It is still logical as Hellifield is only 11 miles beyond Clitheroe and a three way junction providing opportunity and connectivity to travel in a greener mode than by road. Yes, another unit and crew will be required but after electrification of Manchester-Earlestow n in December 2013 there will be at least 9 cascaded units available and many more in 2016 when the whole Lancashire triangle is completed. Of course, the professionals would need to look at costings, rostering and timetabling but that doesn't stop the user group pressing ahead with their campaign to raise awareness of the possibility. A revenue/demand forecast would confirm but cost £10-12,000 or just under £1 per head of population of Clitheroe. Good luck to Peter Brass and his group. They show foresight. deltic08

9:49pm Sat 15 Sep 12

deltic08 says...

Further to my last submission, I have consulted my 1950 LMS timetable. This shows four connections at Hellifield from Blackburn into Carlisle trains at 0447, 0805, 1140, 1632. Southbound, connections at Hellifield 0248,1438, 2042. Waiting time at Hellifield was between 25 and 50 minutes. Only the 0805 northbound was a stopping train to Carlisle. All the others were non stop to/from Carlisle. There was a Birmingham-Glasgow train arriving in Carlisle at 0321 with stops at Blackburn and Hellifield but the corresponding southbound train ran via Shap. The northbound train appears to have been diverted via Shap after Blackburn-Hellifield local service was withdrawn although the route stayed open.

Looking at photos of Blackburn trains in the south bay platform at Hellifield in 1962 just before the service ceased, the quality of passenger comfort was lacking. Compartment coaches without corridors, therefore no toilets. No wonder the line was underused and closed.
Further to my last submission, I have consulted my 1950 LMS timetable. This shows four connections at Hellifield from Blackburn into Carlisle trains at 0447, 0805, 1140, 1632. Southbound, connections at Hellifield 0248,1438, 2042. Waiting time at Hellifield was between 25 and 50 minutes. Only the 0805 northbound was a stopping train to Carlisle. All the others were non stop to/from Carlisle. There was a Birmingham-Glasgow train arriving in Carlisle at 0321 with stops at Blackburn and Hellifield but the corresponding southbound train ran via Shap. The northbound train appears to have been diverted via Shap after Blackburn-Hellifield local service was withdrawn although the route stayed open. Looking at photos of Blackburn trains in the south bay platform at Hellifield in 1962 just before the service ceased, the quality of passenger comfort was lacking. Compartment coaches without corridors, therefore no toilets. No wonder the line was underused and closed. deltic08

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