Victorian era poverty back with us now

THE struggle being faced by people in Blackburn with Darwen has been likened to that faced by people in the Victorian times.

Council leader Kate Hollern’s comparison came as the council announced pledges on what it will achieve next year, in spite of continuing budget cuts.

In a policy forum attended by all councillors, Coun Hollern detailed plans to prioritise jobs, housing, health and wellbeing, support for the young and vulnerable and making money go further.

She also unveiled key targets, such as creating 4,000 apprenticeships, supporting 6,000 people to improve skills and qualifications, delivering major town centre improvements and to work with private landlords of more than 2,300 properties.

She told councillors: “The decisions we have taken may have been tough but delivering them has been even tougher and dealing with the implications of such change day after day, year after year, is toughest of all.

“We are determined to set a clear direction, keep positive and fight back in true Blackburn with Darwen style.

“Many people are really struggling. Some of the cases I hear sound like something from Victorian times, not modern Britain. We urgently had to address how we can better lead economic growth, which is difficult.

“We set out priorities based on what residents told us.”

Conservative leader Coun Mike Lee said the priorities were too broad and suggested an alternative. “Although the priotities are all laudable we would like to see the focus mainly on education and jobs,” he said.

“Without a good standard of education our young people will struggle to access employment.”

Liberal Democrat leader Coun David Foster said: “We are a deprived community. The only way we are going to transform the economy is through the creation of jobs.”

Comments (18)

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5:51pm Mon 9 Dec 13

woolywords says...

I love dissecting what people say, when they have an audience whom are incapable of thinking for themselves.
Cllr Hollern tells us that she intends to act on certain things but there is a bit of a problem with what she said.
Prioritise jobs, as they reduce the council workers, at the lower levels, to save money, as the upper management and councillors gain an inflation busting rise in pay.
Housing, where the council sold off it's housing stock to a private landlord, without saving any for emergency use.
Health and wellbeing, as they reduce funding to all the community centres.
Support for the young and vulnerable, where they themselves provide nothing and again, reduce funding to those that do.
Making money go further, something that should have been done for years, in order to reduce the burden on the charge payers of the borough.

All in all, nothing but hot air. I challenge her to show what she has achieved, in 6 months time, to address any of these issuses, as I strongly suspect, nothing!
I love dissecting what people say, when they have an audience whom are incapable of thinking for themselves. Cllr Hollern tells us that she intends to act on certain things but there is a bit of a problem with what she said. Prioritise jobs, as they reduce the council workers, at the lower levels, to save money, as the upper management and councillors gain an inflation busting rise in pay. Housing, where the council sold off it's housing stock to a private landlord, without saving any for emergency use. Health and wellbeing, as they reduce funding to all the community centres. Support for the young and vulnerable, where they themselves provide nothing and again, reduce funding to those that do. Making money go further, something that should have been done for years, in order to reduce the burden on the charge payers of the borough. All in all, nothing but hot air. I challenge her to show what she has achieved, in 6 months time, to address any of these issuses, as I strongly suspect, nothing! woolywords

7:03pm Mon 9 Dec 13

grumpyoldlady says...

'Likened to Victorian Times.' What planet is this woman on? It doesn't take much to look back at conditions in Victorian times including ten people living in one room, no sanitation. Children dying in infancy (go take a look around a Victorian cemetery). Children without shoes, medicine and education, working full time in the mills at the age of 10.

I am always amazed that whenever I travel around some of the poorest areas in Blackburn there are far more satellite dishes than in my street and young women who look like they haven't two halfpennies to rub together pushing prams and ignoring their children because their mobile phones are permanently glued to their ear.

I am not saying that I do not have sympathy with genuinely unemployed people and I truly believe that there must always be a safety net for those really in need, but Clllr. Hollern is not doing herself any favours with the voters in making such an absurd statement.

May I suggest she takes a look at a book called ' To Build Jerusalem' by John Gorman with a foreword by Len Murray (a man worthy of admiration)
and then see if she feels that she can rightly repeat her viewpoint.

Many Victorians had large families because there was no contraception. In an age where contraception is free perhaps more people should limit their families.

Some years ago there was a headline in a Blackburn paper saying 'Blackburn comes top in the baby boom'. It went on to say that the areas with some of the highest birthrates in England were Brookhouse and Higher Croft. The fact that these were also two of the poorest areas of the town spoke volumes.
'Likened to Victorian Times.' What planet is this woman on? It doesn't take much to look back at conditions in Victorian times including ten people living in one room, no sanitation. Children dying in infancy (go take a look around a Victorian cemetery). Children without shoes, medicine and education, working full time in the mills at the age of 10. I am always amazed that whenever I travel around some of the poorest areas in Blackburn there are far more satellite dishes than in my street and young women who look like they haven't two halfpennies to rub together pushing prams and ignoring their children because their mobile phones are permanently glued to their ear. I am not saying that I do not have sympathy with genuinely unemployed people and I truly believe that there must always be a safety net for those really in need, but Clllr. Hollern is not doing herself any favours with the voters in making such an absurd statement. May I suggest she takes a look at a book called ' To Build Jerusalem' by John Gorman with a foreword by Len Murray (a man worthy of admiration) and then see if she feels that she can rightly repeat her viewpoint. Many Victorians had large families because there was no contraception. In an age where contraception is free perhaps more people should limit their families. Some years ago there was a headline in a Blackburn paper saying 'Blackburn comes top in the baby boom'. It went on to say that the areas with some of the highest birthrates in England were Brookhouse and Higher Croft. The fact that these were also two of the poorest areas of the town spoke volumes. grumpyoldlady

7:49pm Mon 9 Dec 13

BuckoTheMoose says...

Yes, just like victorian times. The playstations, the large TVs, the cars and the extremely generous welfare system. Just like Victorian times.
Yes, just like victorian times. The playstations, the large TVs, the cars and the extremely generous welfare system. Just like Victorian times. BuckoTheMoose

7:58pm Mon 9 Dec 13

liddle 'un says...

The only link with Victorian times is Council leader Kate Hollern rabbiting on like she's been at the Kendal Black Drop again.
The only link with Victorian times is Council leader Kate Hollern rabbiting on like she's been at the Kendal Black Drop again. liddle 'un

10:07pm Mon 9 Dec 13

woolywords says...

liddle 'un wrote:
The only link with Victorian times is Council leader Kate Hollern rabbiting on like she's been at the Kendal Black Drop again.
Kendal Black Drop is a bit dated, you need find another product, between that and Calpol, which is the current trend for doping. Perhaps you were thinking of J Collis Brown cough medicine?
[quote][p][bold]liddle 'un[/bold] wrote: The only link with Victorian times is Council leader Kate Hollern rabbiting on like she's been at the Kendal Black Drop again.[/p][/quote]Kendal Black Drop is a bit dated, you need find another product, between that and Calpol, which is the current trend for doping. Perhaps you were thinking of J Collis Brown cough medicine? woolywords

12:15am Tue 10 Dec 13

davemcb says...

The woman is clearly stupid. She's the one that closed down the Lewis Textile Museum which may have helped inform her of the real conditions in Victorian times.

She seems to revel in being an ignoramus. Clearly that's why the underclass keep voting her in. She's one of them. As they say, you can't polish a turd but you can, perhaps, roll it in glitter. What a glittering Labour councillor Blackburn has in Ms Hollern!
The woman is clearly stupid. She's the one that closed down the Lewis Textile Museum which may have helped inform her of the real conditions in Victorian times. She seems to revel in being an ignoramus. Clearly that's why the underclass keep voting her in. She's one of them. As they say, you can't polish a turd but you can, perhaps, roll it in glitter. What a glittering Labour councillor Blackburn has in Ms Hollern! davemcb

5:17am Tue 10 Dec 13

Timefor says...

My tu'penneth. BwD as a place to live is "poor" by most measurements and whilst this is horrid for many of us living in the town, this state of affairs must be set against the "fact" that Britain is the 7th or 8th richest Country in the world. I see from some comments that the argument about absolute v relative poverty has been introduced and I guess my position is that this separation is an irrelevance and what matters is the quality of life for us all. Arguments can be developed to support or attack either Cllr Hollern or others commenting on this article but that's what you end up with - an argument.

The fact is that BwD is "poor" and poverty cannot be viewed as a stand alone condition as some would prefer the convenience of having us believe. Nope, poverty is clearly on the rise and equally clearly linked to income inequality as shown by any amount of research. Of course, poverty is a horrible thing but, I think, more horrible is this rising level of income inequality which is having a very bad effect on us all.

Few of us know what Cllr Hollern has actually proposed given the level of detail provided by the article but if she and the Council are serious about improving the health and well being for us all then we'd best be hoping that there are proposals being taken forward addressing the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all.
My tu'penneth. BwD as a place to live is "poor" by most measurements and whilst this is horrid for many of us living in the town, this state of affairs must be set against the "fact" that Britain is the 7th or 8th richest Country in the world. I see from some comments that the argument about absolute v relative poverty has been introduced and I guess my position is that this separation is an irrelevance and what matters is the quality of life for us all. Arguments can be developed to support or attack either Cllr Hollern or others commenting on this article but that's what you end up with - an argument. The fact is that BwD is "poor" and poverty cannot be viewed as a stand alone condition as some would prefer the convenience of having us believe. Nope, poverty is clearly on the rise and equally clearly linked to income inequality as shown by any amount of research. Of course, poverty is a horrible thing but, I think, more horrible is this rising level of income inequality which is having a very bad effect on us all. Few of us know what Cllr Hollern has actually proposed given the level of detail provided by the article but if she and the Council are serious about improving the health and well being for us all then we'd best be hoping that there are proposals being taken forward addressing the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all. Timefor

9:18am Tue 10 Dec 13

liddle 'un says...

Timefor wrote:
My tu'penneth. BwD as a place to live is "poor" by most measurements and whilst this is horrid for many of us living in the town, this state of affairs must be set against the "fact" that Britain is the 7th or 8th richest Country in the world. I see from some comments that the argument about absolute v relative poverty has been introduced and I guess my position is that this separation is an irrelevance and what matters is the quality of life for us all. Arguments can be developed to support or attack either Cllr Hollern or others commenting on this article but that's what you end up with - an argument.

The fact is that BwD is "poor" and poverty cannot be viewed as a stand alone condition as some would prefer the convenience of having us believe. Nope, poverty is clearly on the rise and equally clearly linked to income inequality as shown by any amount of research. Of course, poverty is a horrible thing but, I think, more horrible is this rising level of income inequality which is having a very bad effect on us all.

Few of us know what Cllr Hollern has actually proposed given the level of detail provided by the article but if she and the Council are serious about improving the health and well being for us all then we'd best be hoping that there are proposals being taken forward addressing the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all.
With reference to the final part of your treatise, when you use the expression "the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all", can you be more specific or was it just a throwaway term?
[quote][p][bold]Timefor[/bold] wrote: My tu'penneth. BwD as a place to live is "poor" by most measurements and whilst this is horrid for many of us living in the town, this state of affairs must be set against the "fact" that Britain is the 7th or 8th richest Country in the world. I see from some comments that the argument about absolute v relative poverty has been introduced and I guess my position is that this separation is an irrelevance and what matters is the quality of life for us all. Arguments can be developed to support or attack either Cllr Hollern or others commenting on this article but that's what you end up with - an argument. The fact is that BwD is "poor" and poverty cannot be viewed as a stand alone condition as some would prefer the convenience of having us believe. Nope, poverty is clearly on the rise and equally clearly linked to income inequality as shown by any amount of research. Of course, poverty is a horrible thing but, I think, more horrible is this rising level of income inequality which is having a very bad effect on us all. Few of us know what Cllr Hollern has actually proposed given the level of detail provided by the article but if she and the Council are serious about improving the health and well being for us all then we'd best be hoping that there are proposals being taken forward addressing the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all.[/p][/quote]With reference to the final part of your treatise, when you use the expression "the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all", can you be more specific or was it just a throwaway term? liddle 'un

2:55pm Tue 10 Dec 13

blackburnwithdarwen says...

The reasons why Kate is correct!

Blackburn was re-established as a single-member constituency for the 1955 general election, partially replacing Blackburn East and Blackburn West constituencies which had been created only five years earlier. After its re-establishment in 1955, the constituency was initially a marginal, but Blackburn is now considered to be a Labour Party stronghold.

Blackburn council have been predominantly controlled by the Labour Party until May 2007 when it fell into no overall control for a short period. The constituency of Blackburn is a mix of deprived inner-city wards dominated by Muslim voters, white working class and Conservative voting suburbs. The sitting MP’s comprised of Barbara Castle from 1945 to 1979 followed by Jack Straw who is about to retire after thirty four years service.

So, what is the outcome of having a one party governed constituency for so long?

Sorry, no prizes for guessing the correct answer!

But if your wanting to provide yourself with a good salary, without any competition to worry about, complete with the best retirement pension your able to get. All you need do is to try and compete with the many so called Labour councillors that have already achieved that goal. All you need do is to become a New Labour councillor.

You can’t lose in any of the many Blackburn Council safe seats. Provided your able to take little notice of the complaints and have a ready answer. It’s not my fault is the favourite. For the right person with a steadfast temperament the perfect job is impossible to ever lose and waiting for you in Blackburn.

Blackburn with Darwen - Forever doomed!
The reasons why Kate is correct! Blackburn was re-established as a single-member constituency for the 1955 general election, partially replacing Blackburn East and Blackburn West constituencies which had been created only five years earlier. After its re-establishment in 1955, the constituency was initially a marginal, but Blackburn is now considered to be a Labour Party stronghold. Blackburn council have been predominantly controlled by the Labour Party until May 2007 when it fell into no overall control for a short period. The constituency of Blackburn is a mix of deprived inner-city wards dominated by Muslim voters, white working class and Conservative voting suburbs. The sitting MP’s comprised of Barbara Castle from 1945 to 1979 followed by Jack Straw who is about to retire after thirty four years service. So, what is the outcome of having a one party governed constituency for so long? Sorry, no prizes for guessing the correct answer! But if your wanting to provide yourself with a good salary, without any competition to worry about, complete with the best retirement pension your able to get. All you need do is to try and compete with the many so called Labour councillors that have already achieved that goal. All you need do is to become a New Labour councillor. You can’t lose in any of the many Blackburn Council safe seats. Provided your able to take little notice of the complaints and have a ready answer. It’s not my fault is the favourite. For the right person with a steadfast temperament the perfect job is impossible to ever lose and waiting for you in Blackburn. Blackburn with Darwen - Forever doomed! blackburnwithdarwen

4:10pm Tue 10 Dec 13

Timefor says...

liddle 'un wrote:
Timefor wrote:
My tu'penneth. BwD as a place to live is "poor" by most measurements and whilst this is horrid for many of us living in the town, this state of affairs must be set against the "fact" that Britain is the 7th or 8th richest Country in the world. I see from some comments that the argument about absolute v relative poverty has been introduced and I guess my position is that this separation is an irrelevance and what matters is the quality of life for us all. Arguments can be developed to support or attack either Cllr Hollern or others commenting on this article but that's what you end up with - an argument.

The fact is that BwD is "poor" and poverty cannot be viewed as a stand alone condition as some would prefer the convenience of having us believe. Nope, poverty is clearly on the rise and equally clearly linked to income inequality as shown by any amount of research. Of course, poverty is a horrible thing but, I think, more horrible is this rising level of income inequality which is having a very bad effect on us all.

Few of us know what Cllr Hollern has actually proposed given the level of detail provided by the article but if she and the Council are serious about improving the health and well being for us all then we'd best be hoping that there are proposals being taken forward addressing the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all.
With reference to the final part of your treatise, when you use the expression "the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all", can you be more specific or was it just a throwaway term?
In response to liddle 'un. I aint too sure that my thoughts equate to a "treatise", however, the "inequality" I'm referring to is income inequality the levels of which changed dramatically over the course of the 20th century. Income inequality fell from a high point in the 1930s, remained fairly static until 1979, and then increased dramatically from 1979 to 1991. Since 1991 it has remained fairly stable, including during the recent financial crisis.

The UK has the 7th most unequal split of incomes out of 34 countries in the developed world: the top fifth have 42% of the country’s income and 60% of the country’s wealth, the bottom fifth have only 8% of the income and only 1% of the wealth. Within Europe, only Turkey and Portugal have income inequality.

Hope this is specific enough and explains a little more.
[quote][p][bold]liddle 'un[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Timefor[/bold] wrote: My tu'penneth. BwD as a place to live is "poor" by most measurements and whilst this is horrid for many of us living in the town, this state of affairs must be set against the "fact" that Britain is the 7th or 8th richest Country in the world. I see from some comments that the argument about absolute v relative poverty has been introduced and I guess my position is that this separation is an irrelevance and what matters is the quality of life for us all. Arguments can be developed to support or attack either Cllr Hollern or others commenting on this article but that's what you end up with - an argument. The fact is that BwD is "poor" and poverty cannot be viewed as a stand alone condition as some would prefer the convenience of having us believe. Nope, poverty is clearly on the rise and equally clearly linked to income inequality as shown by any amount of research. Of course, poverty is a horrible thing but, I think, more horrible is this rising level of income inequality which is having a very bad effect on us all. Few of us know what Cllr Hollern has actually proposed given the level of detail provided by the article but if she and the Council are serious about improving the health and well being for us all then we'd best be hoping that there are proposals being taken forward addressing the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all.[/p][/quote]With reference to the final part of your treatise, when you use the expression "the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all", can you be more specific or was it just a throwaway term?[/p][/quote]In response to liddle 'un. I aint too sure that my thoughts equate to a "treatise", however, the "inequality" I'm referring to is income inequality the levels of which changed dramatically over the course of the 20th century. Income inequality fell from a high point in the 1930s, remained fairly static until 1979, and then increased dramatically from 1979 to 1991. Since 1991 it has remained fairly stable, including during the recent financial crisis. The UK has the 7th most unequal split of incomes out of 34 countries in the developed world: the top fifth have 42% of the country’s income and 60% of the country’s wealth, the bottom fifth have only 8% of the income and only 1% of the wealth. Within Europe, only Turkey and Portugal have income inequality. Hope this is specific enough and explains a little more. Timefor

4:43pm Tue 10 Dec 13

liddle 'un says...

Timefor wrote:
liddle 'un wrote:
Timefor wrote:
My tu'penneth. BwD as a place to live is "poor" by most measurements and whilst this is horrid for many of us living in the town, this state of affairs must be set against the "fact" that Britain is the 7th or 8th richest Country in the world. I see from some comments that the argument about absolute v relative poverty has been introduced and I guess my position is that this separation is an irrelevance and what matters is the quality of life for us all. Arguments can be developed to support or attack either Cllr Hollern or others commenting on this article but that's what you end up with - an argument.

The fact is that BwD is "poor" and poverty cannot be viewed as a stand alone condition as some would prefer the convenience of having us believe. Nope, poverty is clearly on the rise and equally clearly linked to income inequality as shown by any amount of research. Of course, poverty is a horrible thing but, I think, more horrible is this rising level of income inequality which is having a very bad effect on us all.

Few of us know what Cllr Hollern has actually proposed given the level of detail provided by the article but if she and the Council are serious about improving the health and well being for us all then we'd best be hoping that there are proposals being taken forward addressing the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all.
With reference to the final part of your treatise, when you use the expression "the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all", can you be more specific or was it just a throwaway term?
In response to liddle 'un. I aint too sure that my thoughts equate to a "treatise", however, the "inequality" I'm referring to is income inequality the levels of which changed dramatically over the course of the 20th century. Income inequality fell from a high point in the 1930s, remained fairly static until 1979, and then increased dramatically from 1979 to 1991. Since 1991 it has remained fairly stable, including during the recent financial crisis.

The UK has the 7th most unequal split of incomes out of 34 countries in the developed world: the top fifth have 42% of the country’s income and 60% of the country’s wealth, the bottom fifth have only 8% of the income and only 1% of the wealth. Within Europe, only Turkey and Portugal have income inequality.

Hope this is specific enough and explains a little more.
Are you suggesting we should all be paid the same?
[quote][p][bold]Timefor[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]liddle 'un[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Timefor[/bold] wrote: My tu'penneth. BwD as a place to live is "poor" by most measurements and whilst this is horrid for many of us living in the town, this state of affairs must be set against the "fact" that Britain is the 7th or 8th richest Country in the world. I see from some comments that the argument about absolute v relative poverty has been introduced and I guess my position is that this separation is an irrelevance and what matters is the quality of life for us all. Arguments can be developed to support or attack either Cllr Hollern or others commenting on this article but that's what you end up with - an argument. The fact is that BwD is "poor" and poverty cannot be viewed as a stand alone condition as some would prefer the convenience of having us believe. Nope, poverty is clearly on the rise and equally clearly linked to income inequality as shown by any amount of research. Of course, poverty is a horrible thing but, I think, more horrible is this rising level of income inequality which is having a very bad effect on us all. Few of us know what Cllr Hollern has actually proposed given the level of detail provided by the article but if she and the Council are serious about improving the health and well being for us all then we'd best be hoping that there are proposals being taken forward addressing the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all.[/p][/quote]With reference to the final part of your treatise, when you use the expression "the huge levels of inequality being experienced by us all", can you be more specific or was it just a throwaway term?[/p][/quote]In response to liddle 'un. I aint too sure that my thoughts equate to a "treatise", however, the "inequality" I'm referring to is income inequality the levels of which changed dramatically over the course of the 20th century. Income inequality fell from a high point in the 1930s, remained fairly static until 1979, and then increased dramatically from 1979 to 1991. Since 1991 it has remained fairly stable, including during the recent financial crisis. The UK has the 7th most unequal split of incomes out of 34 countries in the developed world: the top fifth have 42% of the country’s income and 60% of the country’s wealth, the bottom fifth have only 8% of the income and only 1% of the wealth. Within Europe, only Turkey and Portugal have income inequality. Hope this is specific enough and explains a little more.[/p][/quote]Are you suggesting we should all be paid the same? liddle 'un

5:26pm Tue 10 Dec 13

Timefor says...

"Are you suggesting we should all be paid the same?"

Nope! What I'm suggesting is that the effects of income equality are well researched and even more attention is currently being paid to this area. Can I suggest that if you are not familiar with these effects that you beg, borrow or steal, ie get hold of and then read "The Spirit Level", a book which is respected by political parties of all shades nationally and internationally and with which I have no connection. You might also like to take a look at the web site of The Equality Trust which is more than informative.

Personally I find it amazing that in countries with more income equality there are very clear, well researched and greater benefits for all people living there than in countries with more income inequality ie where income equality is greater everyone benefits in so many ways ranging from the health and welfare of the youngest to the oldest through to less crime and use of prisons. I'd best stop listing the benefits or this will indeed risk turning into a treatise.

Finally, it is interesting to note that when asked about income ratios even the wealthiest opt for something far more equitable than currently exists here.
"Are you suggesting we should all be paid the same?" Nope! What I'm suggesting is that the effects of income equality are well researched and even more attention is currently being paid to this area. Can I suggest that if you are not familiar with these effects that you beg, borrow or steal, ie get hold of and then read "The Spirit Level", a book which is respected by political parties of all shades nationally and internationally and with which I have no connection. You might also like to take a look at the web site of The Equality Trust which is more than informative. Personally I find it amazing that in countries with more income equality there are very clear, well researched and greater benefits for all people living there than in countries with more income inequality ie where income equality is greater everyone benefits in so many ways ranging from the health and welfare of the youngest to the oldest through to less crime and use of prisons. I'd best stop listing the benefits or this will indeed risk turning into a treatise. Finally, it is interesting to note that when asked about income ratios even the wealthiest opt for something far more equitable than currently exists here. Timefor

5:33pm Tue 10 Dec 13

shytalk says...

Well we do have the workhouse. It goes by it's new modern name...Workfare
Well we do have the workhouse. It goes by it's new modern name...Workfare shytalk

7:15pm Tue 10 Dec 13

M.DANNY says...

Victorian times ? Satellite dishes cars mobile phone designer clothes, fags and beer and still cry poverty.
Food banks for whom ? money for fags and beer no money for food ?
mobile phones yes, designer clothes and plenty of government benefits for those out of work too.
Those out of work have cars satellite dishes,designer clothes and top of the range mobile phones iphones and Samsung galaxys.
Young people out of work yes high unemployment amongst young people but there are training courses and higher education out there for them.
We are in a middle of world reccession so there are people that are unemployeds but they are far better off in UK than many parts of Europe like Greece Hungry Bulgaria Italy and Spain.
Victorian times ? Satellite dishes cars mobile phone designer clothes, fags and beer and still cry poverty. Food banks for whom ? money for fags and beer no money for food ? mobile phones yes, designer clothes and plenty of government benefits for those out of work too. Those out of work have cars satellite dishes,designer clothes and top of the range mobile phones iphones and Samsung galaxys. Young people out of work yes high unemployment amongst young people but there are training courses and higher education out there for them. We are in a middle of world reccession so there are people that are unemployeds but they are far better off in UK than many parts of Europe like Greece Hungry Bulgaria Italy and Spain. M.DANNY

7:28pm Tue 10 Dec 13

BuckoTheMoose says...

Timefor wrote:
"Are you suggesting we should all be paid the same?"

Nope! What I'm suggesting is that the effects of income equality are well researched and even more attention is currently being paid to this area. Can I suggest that if you are not familiar with these effects that you beg, borrow or steal, ie get hold of and then read "The Spirit Level", a book which is respected by political parties of all shades nationally and internationally and with which I have no connection. You might also like to take a look at the web site of The Equality Trust which is more than informative.

Personally I find it amazing that in countries with more income equality there are very clear, well researched and greater benefits for all people living there than in countries with more income inequality ie where income equality is greater everyone benefits in so many ways ranging from the health and welfare of the youngest to the oldest through to less crime and use of prisons. I'd best stop listing the benefits or this will indeed risk turning into a treatise.

Finally, it is interesting to note that when asked about income ratios even the wealthiest opt for something far more equitable than currently exists here.
I would suggest you do the same for a copy of "The Spirit Level Delusion". A book which completely debunks the Spirit Level.
[quote][p][bold]Timefor[/bold] wrote: "Are you suggesting we should all be paid the same?" Nope! What I'm suggesting is that the effects of income equality are well researched and even more attention is currently being paid to this area. Can I suggest that if you are not familiar with these effects that you beg, borrow or steal, ie get hold of and then read "The Spirit Level", a book which is respected by political parties of all shades nationally and internationally and with which I have no connection. You might also like to take a look at the web site of The Equality Trust which is more than informative. Personally I find it amazing that in countries with more income equality there are very clear, well researched and greater benefits for all people living there than in countries with more income inequality ie where income equality is greater everyone benefits in so many ways ranging from the health and welfare of the youngest to the oldest through to less crime and use of prisons. I'd best stop listing the benefits or this will indeed risk turning into a treatise. Finally, it is interesting to note that when asked about income ratios even the wealthiest opt for something far more equitable than currently exists here.[/p][/quote]I would suggest you do the same for a copy of "The Spirit Level Delusion". A book which completely debunks the Spirit Level. BuckoTheMoose

7:39pm Tue 10 Dec 13

liddle 'un says...

Timefor wrote:
"Are you suggesting we should all be paid the same?"

Nope! What I'm suggesting is that the effects of income equality are well researched and even more attention is currently being paid to this area. Can I suggest that if you are not familiar with these effects that you beg, borrow or steal, ie get hold of and then read "The Spirit Level", a book which is respected by political parties of all shades nationally and internationally and with which I have no connection. You might also like to take a look at the web site of The Equality Trust which is more than informative.

Personally I find it amazing that in countries with more income equality there are very clear, well researched and greater benefits for all people living there than in countries with more income inequality ie where income equality is greater everyone benefits in so many ways ranging from the health and welfare of the youngest to the oldest through to less crime and use of prisons. I'd best stop listing the benefits or this will indeed risk turning into a treatise.

Finally, it is interesting to note that when asked about income ratios even the wealthiest opt for something far more equitable than currently exists here.
My own belief is that for society to function and prosper there has got to be a way of rewarding the diligent and hard working and "punishing" the feckless and indolent.

Normally this is achieved through income stratification.

At a practical level, in this country, I think the issues of income inequality are greatly exaggerated, usually by people with a socialist axe to grind, i.e. "the politics of envy".

I regularly walk through Blackburn town centre and am pleased to report that I have yet to see any Dickensian style orphans. The public houses around Darwen Street are full of down and out types quaffing copious cheap beer and McDonalds is full to bursting. The local hospital's doors are open in equal measure to both rich and poor and education is freely available to those who can be bothered to trouble themselves.

Where is this parallel universe of deprivation?
[quote][p][bold]Timefor[/bold] wrote: "Are you suggesting we should all be paid the same?" Nope! What I'm suggesting is that the effects of income equality are well researched and even more attention is currently being paid to this area. Can I suggest that if you are not familiar with these effects that you beg, borrow or steal, ie get hold of and then read "The Spirit Level", a book which is respected by political parties of all shades nationally and internationally and with which I have no connection. You might also like to take a look at the web site of The Equality Trust which is more than informative. Personally I find it amazing that in countries with more income equality there are very clear, well researched and greater benefits for all people living there than in countries with more income inequality ie where income equality is greater everyone benefits in so many ways ranging from the health and welfare of the youngest to the oldest through to less crime and use of prisons. I'd best stop listing the benefits or this will indeed risk turning into a treatise. Finally, it is interesting to note that when asked about income ratios even the wealthiest opt for something far more equitable than currently exists here.[/p][/quote]My own belief is that for society to function and prosper there has got to be a way of rewarding the diligent and hard working and "punishing" the feckless and indolent. Normally this is achieved through income stratification. At a practical level, in this country, I think the issues of income inequality are greatly exaggerated, usually by people with a socialist axe to grind, i.e. "the politics of envy". I regularly walk through Blackburn town centre and am pleased to report that I have yet to see any Dickensian style orphans. The public houses around Darwen Street are full of down and out types quaffing copious cheap beer and McDonalds is full to bursting. The local hospital's doors are open in equal measure to both rich and poor and education is freely available to those who can be bothered to trouble themselves. Where is this parallel universe of deprivation? liddle 'un

8:09pm Tue 10 Dec 13

raggedtrouseredphilanthropist says...

It is galling to hear Kate Hollern moaning about how tough it is for her and her ilk when they make cuts that directly affect some of the most poorest and vulnerable in the town. Behind this whimpering hand-wringing is a planned and calculated attack on the most needy while at the same time generous sops will be given to the business class.

Hollern's comments on returning to the Victorian times are quite apt. It is now a harrowing fact that food banks have become the norm. Far from Labour doing anything to combat this disgraceful situation they shamefully help administer it. Labour's Phil Riley is one of the food bank trustees - a 21st Century Poor Relief Guardian. Blackburn's very own Mr Bumble!

Labour's crocodile tears should not fool you. When in government they institutionalised poverty pay by introducing the minimum wage. They scrapped Incapacity Benefit and brought in Employment Support Allowance and used the French private company ATOS to attack the sick and disabled. The list of their anti working class policies is endless.

No cuts, full stop! Break with Labour!
It is galling to hear Kate Hollern moaning about how tough it is for her and her ilk when they make cuts that directly affect some of the most poorest and vulnerable in the town. Behind this whimpering hand-wringing is a planned and calculated attack on the most needy while at the same time generous sops will be given to the business class. Hollern's comments on returning to the Victorian times are quite apt. It is now a harrowing fact that food banks have become the norm. Far from Labour doing anything to combat this disgraceful situation they shamefully help administer it. Labour's Phil Riley is one of the food bank trustees - a 21st Century Poor Relief Guardian. Blackburn's very own Mr Bumble! Labour's crocodile tears should not fool you. When in government they institutionalised poverty pay by introducing the minimum wage. They scrapped Incapacity Benefit and brought in Employment Support Allowance and used the French private company ATOS to attack the sick and disabled. The list of their anti working class policies is endless. No cuts, full stop! Break with Labour! raggedtrouseredphilanthropist

6:21am Wed 11 Dec 13

Timefor says...

BuckoTheMoose:

You sure about what you are saying? From my reading of "The Spirit Level Delusion" I do not agree at all. I think you'll find that "The Spirit Level" was re-issued joining the dots and crossing the t's which your reference claimed to have highlighted. Fair criticisms are one thing, political attacks are something else. Frankly, your reference contains no more than ad hoc, piece meal comments which are irrelevant to the 200 or so peer reviewed academic journals demonstrating the relationships between income inequality and everyone's quality of life. The research from around the world supporting this is remarkably consistent.

liddle 'un

In my thinking, I try to steer clear of the "moral" and "democratic" arguments around income inequality (strong as they may be in some respects) and try instead to example the "economic" arguments - which have been attacked by no-one from the Adam Smith Institute onwards.

I'd wondered about introducing a few more facts to this comment but have a sense that all of this is developing into a pseudo-forum!

Simple sounding sound bites such as "politics of envy" don't cut it I'm afraid. I would agree that lazy people don't become billionaires and that wealth generation is vital. What's important to me at least is the equality of opportunity. The state of our country clearly demonstrates that whatever it is that we have been doing over the years, well, it ain't worked too well has it.
BuckoTheMoose: You sure about what you are saying? From my reading of "The Spirit Level Delusion" I do not agree at all. I think you'll find that "The Spirit Level" was re-issued joining the dots and crossing the t's which your reference claimed to have highlighted. Fair criticisms are one thing, political attacks are something else. Frankly, your reference contains no more than ad hoc, piece meal comments which are irrelevant to the 200 or so peer reviewed academic journals demonstrating the relationships between income inequality and everyone's quality of life. The research from around the world supporting this is remarkably consistent. liddle 'un In my thinking, I try to steer clear of the "moral" and "democratic" arguments around income inequality (strong as they may be in some respects) and try instead to example the "economic" arguments - which have been attacked by no-one from the Adam Smith Institute onwards. I'd wondered about introducing a few more facts to this comment but have a sense that all of this is developing into a pseudo-forum! Simple sounding sound bites such as "politics of envy" don't cut it I'm afraid. I would agree that lazy people don't become billionaires and that wealth generation is vital. What's important to me at least is the equality of opportunity. The state of our country clearly demonstrates that whatever it is that we have been doing over the years, well, it ain't worked too well has it. Timefor

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