Tom Daggett, a member of the Young People's Choir, looks at the importance of faith from a teenage point of view.
Why do so many of my friends not attend church? Many don't even believe in God.
Is it because it's not part of the teenage 'image'?
Or is it because the church isn't doing enough to reach out to the needs of my generation?
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Perhaps my friends are too hung over from the night before to crawl out of bed!
I'm not so bothered about preserving my self image.
I feel inspired by the guidance that Christianity can give to my life.
I appreciate the work of the Diocese, and feel that the Church is reaching out to all.
And I'm certainly not a stalwart drinker, as my friends would reassure you (not on a Saturday night, at least).
It's possible that these are some of the fundamental reasons that I can be bothered' to go to Church.
But they're not the only reasons. I want to reflect upon my life; escape the stresses I face on a daily basis.
I'm sure that many readers will have had the good fortune to step foot into the Cathedral, or will have at least heard about the building.
My favourite time spent in the Cathedral is on a Thursday evening, before or after choir practice, when I can be alone in the darkened space.
Life's fast moving, and this sense of stillness and quiet shows me much about the tranquillity of God.
I think it's difficult to escape a hard time as a teenager, but look to the inner door of the Cathedral and read: "This is the House of God and the Gate of Heaven".
When I walk through those doors, that's when I can really escape the stresses of achieving specific grades, arguments with parents and teachers, peer pressure, and identity formation (which, according to my A Level Psychology teacher, we all go through).
This Lent, I'd encourage any other teenagers to put their image aside; make a giant leap forward - step into God's House.
Even just for 5 minutes, that time spent alone, I've found, can give so much clarity to everyday life.
And Lent, of course, is a period of reflection; a time to step out of one's self and look back in through the window.
It's part of adolescence that we question fundamental principles, and religion and God are hot topics for scrutiny.
It's good to be able to be in an environment where I can gain a better understanding of my God by listening to the teachings of others.
Although my facial expression during a Sunday morning sermon might scream "I'm so bored, when are you going to end!?" (no offence intended to any clergy, of course), look deeper, and you will find contemplation of my self and of Christianity (in the context of the captivating sermon, I almost forgot to add!).
So, for a teenager who questions, I find that attending worship helps me to collect and focus my thoughts.
When Facebook (similar to MySpace, for those who remain in the dark) is telling me that my friends hold no religious beliefs, it's really a cue for me to ask them during this Lenten period, "why?".
And I will do. Because my thoughts about religion, I think, can do nothing but grow through widening my knowledge of the beliefs of others.
What can I conclude? That's in the title. Of course, there's the argument concerning teenagers, 'it's only a phase'.
Come 25, I'm sure many of my friends will have picked up their faith.
Posted by: Simplysimon, Burnley on 1:34pm Thu 28 Feb 08
Dear Tom,
The cathedral sign above the door is mis-leading People. God is not in a building of stone. God is within you. The feelings of Peace and Serenity are within you. Even when you are not in the building. Clarity, and all The Gifts of Divinity are always within you.
You are the Gateway to Heaven. It's not a Religious Heaven. It's your Heaven. Heaven is within you. Heaven is unparalleld Joy! Your True Home!
There is only a temporary home in this world. Even the pyramids are crumbling. What People want is a Joy, a Refuge, a Palace that they can enjoy Forever. An Eternal Place.
The Eternal Place is within you. In the Heart of your own Being. Look there and you will find. Listen to your Heart. What you truly are seeking is within. Feel that [bold]need[/bold] to find in your Life. Let that be your Guide. Don't settle for the formulae of others.
Most Teenagers are often trying to avoid the Formulae. Because they can still Understand that the Truth is not in a Formulae. It can only be Discovered within the Heart.
Dear Tom,
The cathedral sign above the door is mis-leading People. God is not in a building of stone. God is within you. The feelings of Peace and Serenity are within you. Even when you are not in the building. Clarity, and all The Gifts of Divinity are always within you.
You are the Gateway to Heaven. It's not a Religious Heaven. It's your Heaven. Heaven is within you. Heaven is unparalleld Joy! Your True Home!
There is only a temporary home in this world. Even the pyramids are crumbling. What People want is a Joy, a Refuge, a Palace that they can enjoy Forever. An Eternal Place.
The Eternal Place is within you. In the Heart of your own Being. Look there and you will find. Listen to your Heart. What you truly are seeking is within. Feel that need to find in your Life. Let that be your Guide. Don't settle for the formulae of others.
Most Teenagers are often trying to avoid the Formulae. Because they can still Understand that the Truth is not in a Formulae. It can only be Discovered within the Heart.
Posted by: Tom Daggett, Blackburn Cathedral on 3:51pm Thu 28 Feb 08
Simplysimon, thanks for your consideration of what I've written. Arguably, a serene place, which, to me, is the Cathedral, can help one to find the sense of 'peace' that you have often mentionned in your comments on the various blogs posted. From this angle, and taking into account your opinion that 'God is within you', then surely the sign above the Cathedral door is far from misleading, as the Cathedral helps one to find God.
I believe that spaces (such as the Cathedral) that give rise to inner space (the ability to sit; reflect upon one's life) are of great benefit to my life as a teenager.
Simplysimon, thanks for your consideration of what I've written. Arguably, a serene place, which, to me, is the Cathedral, can help one to find the sense of 'peace' that you have often mentionned in your comments on the various blogs posted. From this angle, and taking into account your opinion that 'God is within you', then surely the sign above the Cathedral door is far from misleading, as the Cathedral helps one to find God.
I believe that spaces (such as the Cathedral) that give rise to inner space (the ability to sit; reflect upon one's life) are of great benefit to my life as a teenager.
I used to wonder a little why a friend of mine had to be "rescued" from a christian cult in her teenage years.....I'm getting a little closer to understanding.
[quote]Why do so many of my friends not attend church? Many don't even believe in God.
Is it because it's not part of the teenage 'image'?[/quote]
No, it's because they don't automatically accept what is thrown at them but chose to say [italic]"do you really, honestly, expect me to believe than the entire universe was created in 6 days"[/italic] or
[italic]"noah's ark - don't be ridiculous"[/italic]or
[italic]"the sun going round the earth - I just read about Galilee [/italic]
or [italic]"so who created god?"[/italic] or [italic]god approves of having three wives in the old testament - isn't that a bit wrong?[/italic] (continue ad infinitum)
I feel inspired by the guidance that Christianity can give to my life.[/quote]
Good - I suggest there is far more inspiration and guidance to be seen in people acting on their own volition.
[quote]I appreciate the work of the Diocese, and feel that the Church is reaching out to all.[/quote]
Notwithstanding the nice people at Blackburn Cathedral, suggest you do a bit more research into the church! Take the following subjects: [italic]Misogeny[/italic] (so why did so many members of the church object to women priests?) [italic]Homophobia[/italic] : Gay people are just as capable of believing in god so should be just as able to preach. [italic]Child Abuse:[/italic] (covered on previous posts, but not as much as it was covered up by the cofe)
The list is endless. Despite the apparant welcoming attitude, the church (same applies for all religions I've studied) in reality sews division in society. Despite the kind words shown in many of these blogs, the church does not match up to it's promise of reaching out. By it's very nature it excludes.
[quote]
But they're not the only reasons. I want to reflect upon my life; escape the stresses I face on a daily basis.[/quote]
Self reflction and stress escape does not require religion. (although the soothing tones of a service and a bit of singing and incense does release seratonin into the brain in a similar fashion to clubbers drug compounds - no wonder religion "feels love")
Try doing this without the church (not the drugs bit)- it's a positive experience.
[quote]Life's fast moving, and this sense of stillness and quiet shows me much about the tranquillity of God.[/quote]
The tranquility inside a church is a creation of the architect and the interior designer, not god.
Inside a church tells me much about the wealth of the church . . .but nothing about tranquility. The lack of stillness and quiet outside the cathedral where yoofs are throwing bottles at the walls - no tranquility there, and this blog can not of course be suggesting that god is absent outside the church.
For the rest - - - - - a church is not needed to find peace and contemplation. As for asking your friends why they don't believe - an equally important question for a teenager who would question everything . . . Why believe?
Study the bible and the new testament beyond the weekly reading . Study the levels that religion has gone to (and still does) to perpetuate persecution and division.
The inherent contradictions and untruths of religious texts mean that they are of little intrinsic value beyond studying the lifestyle of farmers in a stone age society who had no scientific explanation for the events around them and no stable legal system.
Faith: Come 25, you might have lost yours!
film quote from before your time:
[italic][quote]If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
Colour Sergeant Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.[/quote] [/italic]
I used to wonder a little why a friend of mine had to be "rescued" from a christian cult in her teenage years.....I'm getting a little closer to understanding.
Why do so many of my friends not attend church? Many don't even believe in God.
Is it because it's not part of the teenage 'image'?
No, it's because they don't automatically accept what is thrown at them but chose to say "do you really, honestly, expect me to believe than the entire universe was created in 6 days" or "noah's ark - don't be ridiculous"or "the sun going round the earth - I just read about Galilee
or "so who created god?" or god approves of having three wives in the old testament - isn't that a bit wrong? (continue ad infinitum)
I feel inspired by the guidance that Christianity can give to my life.
Good - I suggest there is far more inspiration and guidance to be seen in people acting on their own volition.
I appreciate the work of the Diocese, and feel that the Church is reaching out to all.
Notwithstanding the nice people at Blackburn Cathedral, suggest you do a bit more research into the church! Take the following subjects: Misogeny (so why did so many members of the church object to women priests?) Homophobia : Gay people are just as capable of believing in god so should be just as able to preach. Child Abuse: (covered on previous posts, but not as much as it was covered up by the cofe)
The list is endless. Despite the apparant welcoming attitude, the church (same applies for all religions I've studied) in reality sews division in society. Despite the kind words shown in many of these blogs, the church does not match up to it's promise of reaching out. By it's very nature it excludes.
But they're not the only reasons. I want to reflect upon my life; escape the stresses I face on a daily basis.
Self reflction and stress escape does not require religion. (although the soothing tones of a service and a bit of singing and incense does release seratonin into the brain in a similar fashion to clubbers drug compounds - no wonder religion "feels love")
Try doing this without the church (not the drugs bit)- it's a positive experience.
Life's fast moving, and this sense of stillness and quiet shows me much about the tranquillity of God.
The tranquility inside a church is a creation of the architect and the interior designer, not god.
Inside a church tells me much about the wealth of the church . . .but nothing about tranquility. The lack of stillness and quiet outside the cathedral where yoofs are throwing bottles at the walls - no tranquility there, and this blog can not of course be suggesting that god is absent outside the church.
For the rest - - - - - a church is not needed to find peace and contemplation. As for asking your friends why they don't believe - an equally important question for a teenager who would question everything . . . Why believe?
Study the bible and the new testament beyond the weekly reading . Study the levels that religion has gone to (and still does) to perpetuate persecution and division.
The inherent contradictions and untruths of religious texts mean that they are of little intrinsic value beyond studying the lifestyle of farmers in a stone age society who had no scientific explanation for the events around them and no stable legal system.
Faith: Come 25, you might have lost yours!
film quote from before your time: If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
Colour Sergeant Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.
Posted by: Tom Daggett, Blackburn Cathedral on 8:36pm Thu 28 Feb 08
Marcus, my word! You're comment is probably as long as the blog itself! You provide some interesting points, evidently coming from an out and out athiest; which, as I said in the blog, can only widen my religious understandings.
I wish to consider a number of your arguments, though. The examples regarding creation, etc, I take to be metaphorical. There is no way that the early authors of the old testament actually knew how the earth was created, but I have come to believe that God is behind scientific processes. But that's an argument I don't intend to get into. I don't believe that such biblical fallacies are the reasons why many teenagers don't follow Christianity. I think that from a sociological point of view, as society is becoming more and more lenient (eg. acceptance of sexual activity etc.), religious laws are being undermined, thus resulting in fewer teenagers feeling the need to abide by Christian law. But is that the fault of the Church?
Secondly, regarding homosexuality, as previously discussed in another blog, at Blackburn, acceptance is something that makes us stand out. I similarly don't believe that misogeny is an issue, as there are a number of female ecumenical canons and so on.
Thirdly, your criticism "The tranquility inside a church is a creation of the architect and the interior designer, not God", I believe to be wrong. Although I can forsee you saying 'perhaps the architect wasn't a Christian', and agreeably, perhaps he wasn't, the fundamental inspiration for the building came from God's word and the Christian message. So, surely then, the building evokes an understanding of God, does it not? It does for ME, anyway, which is why I wrote what I did. I was simply demonstrating some of my personal feeling that arises from me being in the quiet Cathedral.
"The inherent contradictions and untruths of religious texts mean that they are of little intrinsic value beyond studying the lifestyle of farmers in a stone age society who had no scientific explanation for the events around them and no stable legal system." Arguably not. If religious texts inspire MILLIONS to be better people from day to day, then surely there is great intrinsic value in their purpose. Imagine a world without religion. Murder rates would be higher. There would be lower morals; weaker self belief. Regarding self belief, I found that prayer whilst waiting outside various rooms in which I had university interviews with world renowned doctors etc, boosted my self confidence and calmed me down. So has religion been of no use to my life? It has been of great use.
Excuse me if my tone seems somewhat argumentative. After all, I am a teenager!!!
Marcus, my word! You're comment is probably as long as the blog itself! You provide some interesting points, evidently coming from an out and out athiest; which, as I said in the blog, can only widen my religious understandings.
I wish to consider a number of your arguments, though. The examples regarding creation, etc, I take to be metaphorical. There is no way that the early authors of the old testament actually knew how the earth was created, but I have come to believe that God is behind scientific processes. But that's an argument I don't intend to get into. I don't believe that such biblical fallacies are the reasons why many teenagers don't follow Christianity. I think that from a sociological point of view, as society is becoming more and more lenient (eg. acceptance of sexual activity etc.), religious laws are being undermined, thus resulting in fewer teenagers feeling the need to abide by Christian law. But is that the fault of the Church?
Secondly, regarding homosexuality, as previously discussed in another blog, at Blackburn, acceptance is something that makes us stand out. I similarly don't believe that misogeny is an issue, as there are a number of female ecumenical canons and so on.
Thirdly, your criticism "The tranquility inside a church is a creation of the architect and the interior designer, not God", I believe to be wrong. Although I can forsee you saying 'perhaps the architect wasn't a Christian', and agreeably, perhaps he wasn't, the fundamental inspiration for the building came from God's word and the Christian message. So, surely then, the building evokes an understanding of God, does it not? It does for ME, anyway, which is why I wrote what I did. I was simply demonstrating some of my personal feeling that arises from me being in the quiet Cathedral.
"The inherent contradictions and untruths of religious texts mean that they are of little intrinsic value beyond studying the lifestyle of farmers in a stone age society who had no scientific explanation for the events around them and no stable legal system." Arguably not. If religious texts inspire MILLIONS to be better people from day to day, then surely there is great intrinsic value in their purpose. Imagine a world without religion. Murder rates would be higher. There would be lower morals; weaker self belief. Regarding self belief, I found that prayer whilst waiting outside various rooms in which I had university interviews with world renowned doctors etc, boosted my self confidence and calmed me down. So has religion been of no use to my life? It has been of great use.
Excuse me if my tone seems somewhat argumentative. After all, I am a teenager!!!
Posted by: Tom Daggett, Blackburn Cathedral on 8:46pm Thu 28 Feb 08
"Tom,
Any thoughts about the influence of apathetic parents, many really frightened that their teenagers might get religion bad?"
I have never been forced, throughout my teenage years so far, to attend church. In fact, I go to a different church (the Cathedral) to my parents, and attend church more frequently too! Of course, I'm not saying that my parents are apathetic, but they left me free to choose.
My response would be that apathy is neither good nor bad, as such. Whilst the freedom to believe or deny religion gives rise to one fulfilling one's spiritual needs, forced religion would surely, I think, steer such teenagers away from religion in later life.Its an interesting question, though. And I would think that leaving the option as to whether to attend church, open, would be the most beneficial from a teenage point of view.
"Tom,
Any thoughts about the influence of apathetic parents, many really frightened that their teenagers might get religion bad?"
I have never been forced, throughout my teenage years so far, to attend church. In fact, I go to a different church (the Cathedral) to my parents, and attend church more frequently too! Of course, I'm not saying that my parents are apathetic, but they left me free to choose.
My response would be that apathy is neither good nor bad, as such. Whilst the freedom to believe or deny religion gives rise to one fulfilling one's spiritual needs, forced religion would surely, I think, steer such teenagers away from religion in later life.Its an interesting question, though. And I would think that leaving the option as to whether to attend church, open, would be the most beneficial from a teenage point of view.
Tom - good effort all round.
[quote]The examples regarding creation, etc, I take to be metaphorical. There is no way that the early authors of the old testament actually knew how the earth was created, but I have come to believe that God is behind scientific processes.[/quote]
The facts of history show that those who refused to accept the churchs teachings - the bible is the word of god and therefore is fact - on such issues were persecuted and frequently MURDERED as heretics; the church taught the falsehoods of the bible as fact. The bible was seen to be the word of god. Science has shown the word of god (the bible) to be demonstrably false on hundreds of points since the persecution of galilee. Hence the obvious contradition in your comment.
[quote]biblical fallacies[/quote]
ah, well spotted. Yesterdays biblical facts are todays fallacies. Makes you thing - [italic]"what does the church teach us today that tomorrow would be considered fallacy[/italic] " Just think - it used to be taught as FACT (by the church) that the fossils of dinosaurs were the animals that didn't make it onto the ark!!!! (never mind the cruel barbaric god that according to this story wiped out the rest of life one earth, innocent children and all.....)
[quote]I think that from a sociological point of view, as society is becoming more and more lenient (eg. acceptance of sexual activity etc.), religious laws are being undermined, thus resulting in fewer teenagers feeling the need to abide by Christian law. But is that the fault of the Church?[/quote]
You say leniency, I say FREEDOM. Christian law such as "no sex before marriage" predates contraception. Society has advanced. Ancient moral codes such as this, and the narrow minded "putting religion first" attitude serves only to destroy families - see previous posts for examples.
Religious Laws? You mean the code of life for shepherds in the desert? Which bits? All or some? What about the sections of the bible demanding "death for blasphemers" .Given the impossibility of drawing a line and the rampant sectarianism that is produced by trying to draw law from the bible....the continually evolving law of common law and precedent is the correct way to allow society to develop. Not backwards looking theocracy
[quote]Secondly, regarding homosexuality, as previously discussed in another blog, at Blackburn, acceptance is something that makes us stand out. I similarly don't believe that misogeny is an issue, as there are a number of female ecumenical canons and so on.[/quote]
Oh, at blackburn it's ok. Blackburn is part of the same CofE so shares collective responsibility for the wrongs done in the name of the church.
[quote]Thirdly, your criticism "The tranquility inside a church is a creation of the architect and the interior designer, not God", I believe to be wrong. Although I can forsee you saying 'perhaps the architect wasn't a Christian', and agreeably, perhaps he wasn't, the fundamental inspiration for the building came from God's word and the Christian message. So, surely then, the building evokes an understanding of God, does it not? It does for ME, anyway, which is why I wrote what I did. I was simply demonstrating some of my personal feeling that arises from me being in the quiet Cathedral.[/quote]
It's the basics of architecture to create quiet spaces....it's the basis of interior design to create calm....it's the purpose of the design to match the needs of the building (con you into believing in the supernatural)
It envokes zero understanding of god in me Geometry - maybe. Anger at spending huge amounts of cash on imaginary friends in a town with high poverty rates - definitely.
[quote] Arguably not. If religious texts inspire MILLIONS to be better people from day to day, then surely there is great intrinsic value in their purpose.[/quote]
The exact same texts are used as the justifications for persecutions, harassment, murder , destruction and war. Millions of people on one side believing they are doings gods work fighting millions of people on the other side thinking they are doing gods work - Millions of deaths over "who has the most powerful imaginary friend"
(take a look at the linky)
[quote]Imagine a world without religion.[/quote]
Ah, John Lennon (the bloke with the airport in Liverpool for you youngsters!) had something to say about that . . . . . a bit different to your comments!
[quote]Murder rates would be higher[/quote] .
Why? Evidence? Are you implying that if you didn't believe in god you would murder somebody?
Or that non-believers are murderers?
Or that atheists are more likely to kill people?
What makes you think than non-believers hold life in any less regard?
On the contrary, a non-believer thinks the afterlife to be a pack of lies developed by the church to feather it's own nest is (I suggest) far more likely to value the brief time we have here. Nothing comes after, so only one opportunity to do your best.
Or is this just another example of the self-superiority of religious types!?!
[quote] There would be lower morals; weaker self belief.[/quote]
Why? You appear to believe that a religious code is necessary for a society to have "morals". Studies of anthropology shows this to be nonsense.
[quote]Regarding self belief, I found that prayer whilst waiting outside various rooms in which I had university interviews with world renowned doctors etc, boosted my self confidence and calmed me down. So has religion been of no use to my life? It has been of great use.[/quote]
Getting rid of religion can be at least as confidence boosting.
[quote]Excuse me if my tone seems somewhat argumentative. After all, I am a teenager!!![/quote]
I hope you maintain your argumentative tone for the rest of your days It suggests an inquisitive mind. I certainly havn't lost mine and have been accused of being a "fundamentalist atheist" by people who clearly do not see the inherant contradictory impossibility of this term!
But remember, Adam was thrown out of the garden of eden for eating from the tree of knowledge. At some point - just like Adam - you may have to make a choice - knowledge or religion - the two have shown themselves to often be mutually exclusive. . . . me - I'd much rather eat the apple of knowledge - every time. . . .
[italic]"We are always making God our accomplice so that we may legalize our own inequities. Every successful massacre is consecrated by a Te Deum, and the clergy have never been wanting in benedictions for any victorious enormity."
-- Henri Frédéric Amiel[/italic]
//mapsofwar.com/imag
es/Religion.swf
Tom - good effort all round.
The examples regarding creation, etc, I take to be metaphorical. There is no way that the early authors of the old testament actually knew how the earth was created, but I have come to believe that God is behind scientific processes.
The facts of history show that those who refused to accept the churchs teachings - the bible is the word of god and therefore is fact - on such issues were persecuted and frequently MURDERED as heretics; the church taught the falsehoods of the bible as fact. The bible was seen to be the word of god. Science has shown the word of god (the bible) to be demonstrably false on hundreds of points since the persecution of galilee. Hence the obvious contradition in your comment.
biblical fallacies
ah, well spotted. Yesterdays biblical facts are todays fallacies. Makes you thing - "what does the church teach us today that tomorrow would be considered fallacy " Just think - it used to be taught as FACT (by the church) that the fossils of dinosaurs were the animals that didn't make it onto the ark!!!! (never mind the cruel barbaric god that according to this story wiped out the rest of life one earth, innocent children and all.....)
I think that from a sociological point of view, as society is becoming more and more lenient (eg. acceptance of sexual activity etc.), religious laws are being undermined, thus resulting in fewer teenagers feeling the need to abide by Christian law. But is that the fault of the Church?
You say leniency, I say FREEDOM. Christian law such as "no sex before marriage" predates contraception. Society has advanced. Ancient moral codes such as this, and the narrow minded "putting religion first" attitude serves only to destroy families - see previous posts for examples.
Religious Laws? You mean the code of life for shepherds in the desert? Which bits? All or some? What about the sections of the bible demanding "death for blasphemers" .Given the impossibility of drawing a line and the rampant sectarianism that is produced by trying to draw law from the bible....the continually evolving law of common law and precedent is the correct way to allow society to develop. Not backwards looking theocracy
Secondly, regarding homosexuality, as previously discussed in another blog, at Blackburn, acceptance is something that makes us stand out. I similarly don't believe that misogeny is an issue, as there are a number of female ecumenical canons and so on.
Oh, at blackburn it's ok. Blackburn is part of the same CofE so shares collective responsibility for the wrongs done in the name of the church.
Thirdly, your criticism "The tranquility inside a church is a creation of the architect and the interior designer, not God", I believe to be wrong. Although I can forsee you saying 'perhaps the architect wasn't a Christian', and agreeably, perhaps he wasn't, the fundamental inspiration for the building came from God's word and the Christian message. So, surely then, the building evokes an understanding of God, does it not? It does for ME, anyway, which is why I wrote what I did. I was simply demonstrating some of my personal feeling that arises from me being in the quiet Cathedral.
It's the basics of architecture to create quiet spaces....it's the basis of interior design to create calm....it's the purpose of the design to match the needs of the building (con you into believing in the supernatural)
It envokes zero understanding of god in me Geometry - maybe. Anger at spending huge amounts of cash on imaginary friends in a town with high poverty rates - definitely.
Arguably not. If religious texts inspire MILLIONS to be better people from day to day, then surely there is great intrinsic value in their purpose.
The exact same texts are used as the justifications for persecutions, harassment, murder , destruction and war. Millions of people on one side believing they are doings gods work fighting millions of people on the other side thinking they are doing gods work - Millions of deaths over "who has the most powerful imaginary friend"
(take a look at the linky)
Imagine a world without religion.
Ah, John Lennon (the bloke with the airport in Liverpool for you youngsters!) had something to say about that . . . . . a bit different to your comments!
Murder rates would be higher
.
Why? Evidence? Are you implying that if you didn't believe in god you would murder somebody?
Or that non-believers are murderers?
Or that atheists are more likely to kill people?
What makes you think than non-believers hold life in any less regard?
On the contrary, a non-believer thinks the afterlife to be a pack of lies developed by the church to feather it's own nest is (I suggest) far more likely to value the brief time we have here. Nothing comes after, so only one opportunity to do your best.
Or is this just another example of the self-superiority of religious types!?!
There would be lower morals; weaker self belief.
Why? You appear to believe that a religious code is necessary for a society to have "morals". Studies of anthropology shows this to be nonsense.
Regarding self belief, I found that prayer whilst waiting outside various rooms in which I had university interviews with world renowned doctors etc, boosted my self confidence and calmed me down. So has religion been of no use to my life? It has been of great use.
Getting rid of religion can be at least as confidence boosting.
Excuse me if my tone seems somewhat argumentative. After all, I am a teenager!!!
I hope you maintain your argumentative tone for the rest of your days It suggests an inquisitive mind. I certainly havn't lost mine and have been accused of being a "fundamentalist atheist" by people who clearly do not see the inherant contradictory impossibility of this term!
But remember, Adam was thrown out of the garden of eden for eating from the tree of knowledge. At some point - just like Adam - you may have to make a choice - knowledge or religion - the two have shown themselves to often be mutually exclusive. . . . me - I'd much rather eat the apple of knowledge - every time. . . .
"We are always making God our accomplice so that we may legalize our own inequities. Every successful massacre is consecrated by a Te Deum, and the clergy have never been wanting in benedictions for any victorious enormity."
-- Henri Frédéric Amiel
Posted by: Tom Daggett, Blackburn Cathedral on 12:10pm Fri 29 Feb 08
Marcus, you stick at your arguments rather impressively! Just a few points, though.
Has religion not given us the societies that we have today? You quite rightly mention the role of Common Law and Precedent in the legal system, but the fundamental basis of all law stems from the teachings of biblical texts. Even if not direct, there is certainly a close correlation between the two: "Thou shalt not murder" as one chiched example, stealing etc.
Leading on from this, and relating to a point you considered, I firmly believe that the belief in an afterlife, and the belief in an obligation to behave in a way that would please The Creator, is a fundamental reason why people shape their behaviour. If there was no ultimate goal in life (for Christians, being heaven), then what would it matter how we behave in life. This is not to say that I am trying to empirically prove the existence of God, but I am saying that even in this contemporary society that you rightly said has developed greatly from the times of "shepheards", religion is far from a bad thing!
Of course, I am not persecuting all 'non-believers' as immoral, but am simply arguing that without the basis of religious guidance, the behaviour of mankind would be far worse.
Just one more point. Does there have to be a definitive divide between religion and knowledge? There are, after all, many scholars who are followers of faith. Even in Blackburn!
Thanks for keeping me on my toes, though, Marcus!
Marcus, you stick at your arguments rather impressively! Just a few points, though.
Has religion not given us the societies that we have today? You quite rightly mention the role of Common Law and Precedent in the legal system, but the fundamental basis of all law stems from the teachings of biblical texts. Even if not direct, there is certainly a close correlation between the two: "Thou shalt not murder" as one chiched example, stealing etc.
Leading on from this, and relating to a point you considered, I firmly believe that the belief in an afterlife, and the belief in an obligation to behave in a way that would please The Creator, is a fundamental reason why people shape their behaviour. If there was no ultimate goal in life (for Christians, being heaven), then what would it matter how we behave in life. This is not to say that I am trying to empirically prove the existence of God, but I am saying that even in this contemporary society that you rightly said has developed greatly from the times of "shepheards", religion is far from a bad thing!
Of course, I am not persecuting all 'non-believers' as immoral, but am simply arguing that without the basis of religious guidance, the behaviour of mankind would be far worse.
Just one more point. Does there have to be a definitive divide between religion and knowledge? There are, after all, many scholars who are followers of faith. Even in Blackburn!
Tom,
I belive that teenagers in general believe that it is not part of thier 'image' because they do not know what religion realy is. I strongly belive that teenagers do know vagely about religion and think about but do not question themselves enough about it. If they put as much though and time into it as you and I have they will eventualy see and realise that it is not about 'image' but personal belief.
Tom,
I belive that teenagers in general believe that it is not part of thier 'image' because they do not know what religion realy is. I strongly belive that teenagers do know vagely about religion and think about but do not question themselves enough about it. If they put as much though and time into it as you and I have they will eventualy see and realise that it is not about 'image' but personal belief.
Posted by: Simplysimon, Burnley on 2:48pm Fri 29 Feb 08
Dear Tom,
What is wrong with Certainty.? Why do we settle for belief?
There is a lot of talk about what God is and what God isn't and how God works and what God wants. It seems to me that in the absence of Knowledge, there are as many theories as there are People.
But I would like someone to show me God. Not just talk and talk and talk and talk.
I want to Know the Eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. I want to Know ?
THE BIG QUESTION IS WHO WILL SHOW ME ? ?
I don't want an endless set of formulae. I don't want to believe what someone else believes. I dont want an un-provable theory. I don't want anyones best-guess-speculati
ons.
I want to examine, test, look at, perceive that one part of the Universe that I can say without any shadow or hint of doubt. Is God.
The One Supreme Eternal Element. I want to investigate that for myself.
Can the Archbeacon show me? Can the Pope Show me. Can the Immams, the Priests the Vicars, the Monks,the Cheif Rabbi, the Nuns, the Scientists, the Teachers, the Astronaughts, the Astronomers the Atheists or any Long-Time Dead Wonderman show me God Today. Right now!
I want to Know! Beyond any doubt!
Dear Tom,
What is wrong with Certainty.? Why do we settle for belief?
There is a lot of talk about what God is and what God isn't and how God works and what God wants. It seems to me that in the absence of Knowledge, there are as many theories as there are People.
But I would like someone to show me God. Not just talk and talk and talk and talk.
I want to Know the Eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. I want to Know ?
THE BIG QUESTION IS WHO WILL SHOW ME ? ?
I don't want an endless set of formulae. I don't want to believe what someone else believes. I dont want an un-provable theory. I don't want anyones best-guess-speculati
ons.
I want to examine, test, look at, perceive that one part of the Universe that I can say without any shadow or hint of doubt. Is God.
The One Supreme Eternal Element. I want to investigate that for myself.
Can the Archbeacon show me? Can the Pope Show me. Can the Immams, the Priests the Vicars, the Monks,the Cheif Rabbi, the Nuns, the Scientists, the Teachers, the Astronaughts, the Astronomers the Atheists or any Long-Time Dead Wonderman show me God Today. Right now!
Posted by: Tom Daggett, Blackburn Cathedral on 5:08pm Fri 29 Feb 08
Simplysimon,
Thanks for these deep questions. I myself (as a 'questionning teenager' - mentionned in the blog)have pondered on similar topics.
I would say that to know whether God is the 'Supreme Universal Being', one has to take a more subjective view of faith and God. Atheists tend to view faith very objectively, which is not what spirituality is about. As Christians, we are sure that one simply has to believe, and this belief and trust in God leads to a feeling that He is with us. Jesus said that we should not put the Lord God to the test. Surely, looking empirically at God would count as putting Him to the test.
No science can prove the existence of the soul. No science can disprove the existence of the soul. This area of life is therefore relatively untouched, and because of this ignorance of a 'greater force', we must presently accept that we get to know God through faith. Of course, there have been recorded cases (see youtube for the video), where people have been pronounced dead, and, after a couple of days, have come back to life, truly knowing that they have seen the face of Christ. Seen heaven. Pretty convincing stuff, if you manage to find what I'm talking about. And that may be the closest to empirical proof that you get.
"Who will show me?". Jesus. Through Jesus, makind has become closer to God. This is the basis of Christianity!
Simplysimon,
Thanks for these deep questions. I myself (as a 'questionning teenager' - mentionned in the blog)have pondered on similar topics.
I would say that to know whether God is the 'Supreme Universal Being', one has to take a more subjective view of faith and God. Atheists tend to view faith very objectively, which is not what spirituality is about. As Christians, we are sure that one simply has to believe, and this belief and trust in God leads to a feeling that He is with us. Jesus said that we should not put the Lord God to the test. Surely, looking empirically at God would count as putting Him to the test.
No science can prove the existence of the soul. No science can disprove the existence of the soul. This area of life is therefore relatively untouched, and because of this ignorance of a 'greater force', we must presently accept that we get to know God through faith. Of course, there have been recorded cases (see youtube for the video), where people have been pronounced dead, and, after a couple of days, have come back to life, truly knowing that they have seen the face of Christ. Seen heaven. Pretty convincing stuff, if you manage to find what I'm talking about. And that may be the closest to empirical proof that you get.
"Who will show me?". Jesus. Through Jesus, makind has become closer to God. This is the basis of Christianity!
[quote]Has religion not given us the societies that we have today? You quite rightly mention the role of Common Law and Precedent in the legal system, but the fundamental basis of all law stems from the teachings of biblical texts. Even if not direct, there is certainly a close correlation between the two: "Thou shalt not murder" as one chiched example, stealing etc.[/quote]
Yes, religion is responsible for many of the intolerant societies today.
Take Israel for example. Busy thinking that as god’s chosen people they have a god given right to persecute another group of people who also have a book they claim gives them ownership of a piece of desert. Take Saudi Arabia, where literal Koran interpretation holds women in stone-age bondage. Take the USA (a supposedly secular country) where political leaders are on record as claiming that (by killing innocents) they “are doing the work of god”
It’s not that long ago that there were prosecutions in this country for blasphemy. Just a few of infinite list of the inherent dangers of basing a legal system on theocracy. It leads directly to divisions in society and the persecution of those who exercise [italic]their right to choose not to believe[/italic] becomes tolerated, then accepted, then encouraged.
Equally, the bible is so full of contradictions that to gain any sort of consistent moral guidance is impossible. Various parts of the bible encourage gang rape, bigamy, murder (only of non-believers), fratricide, genocide and pretty much everything we would today hold in disgust. The selective readings of the “modern” church are simply an attempt at keeping the regime together when it’s foundations are so evidently crumbling.
[quote]Leading on from this, and relating to a point you considered, I firmly believe that the belief in an afterlife, and the belief in an obligation to behave in a way that would please The Creator, is a fundamental reason why people shape their behaviour. If there was no ultimate goal in life (for Christians, being heaven), then what would it matter how we behave in life. This is not to say that I am trying to empirically prove the existence of God, but I am saying that even in this contemporary society that you rightly said has developed greatly from the times of "shepheards", religion is far from a bad thing![/quote]
On the contrary, unfailing belief in the afterlife through indoctrination can and does lead to horrors. At its most extreme, suicide bombers are invariably convinced they are on the road to heaven and are acting with gods blessing.
Sorry – but to me, the idea of an ultimate goal in life being entry to heaven (when there is absolutely no evidence of its existence) just shows successful indoctrination! My ultimate goal in life being the happiness and wellbeing of those in my care. This certainly does not come from any religious upbringing – it’s part of human existence since long before the advent of Christianity.
[quote]Of course, I am not persecuting all 'non-believers' as immoral, but am simply arguing that without the basis of religious guidance, the behaviour of mankind would be far worse.[/quote]
Quite the opposite viewpoint here- it is religion and the unswerving adoption of conflicting doctrines which is often at the root of the evils of mankinds behaviour.
[quote]Just one more point. Does there have to be a definitive divide between religion and knowledge? There are, after all, many scholars who are followers of faith. Even in Blackburn![/quote]
Ah yes, I’m reminded of my slightly mad old headmaster, a CofE vicar.....
In answer -
Of course not, but both the old testament and new testament are crammed full of quotes telling us that knowledge is the enemy of faith [italic](it was even one of Martin Luthor King’s favourite phrases)[/italic] .......but now it’s time to go the pub – I’ll leave that one for your weekend study – good luck.
I might even go to Mass this weekend (the South London nightclub, that is!)
Now that is somewhere I would encourage you to go on Sunday, just for the afterparty.
Has religion not given us the societies that we have today? You quite rightly mention the role of Common Law and Precedent in the legal system, but the fundamental basis of all law stems from the teachings of biblical texts. Even if not direct, there is certainly a close correlation between the two: "Thou shalt not murder" as one chiched example, stealing etc.
Yes, religion is responsible for many of the intolerant societies today.
Take Israel for example. Busy thinking that as god’s chosen people they have a god given right to persecute another group of people who also have a book they claim gives them ownership of a piece of desert. Take Saudi Arabia, where literal Koran interpretation holds women in stone-age bondage. Take the USA (a supposedly secular country) where political leaders are on record as claiming that (by killing innocents) they “are doing the work of god”
It’s not that long ago that there were prosecutions in this country for blasphemy. Just a few of infinite list of the inherent dangers of basing a legal system on theocracy. It leads directly to divisions in society and the persecution of those who exercise their right to choose not to believe becomes tolerated, then accepted, then encouraged.
Equally, the bible is so full of contradictions that to gain any sort of consistent moral guidance is impossible. Various parts of the bible encourage gang rape, bigamy, murder (only of non-believers), fratricide, genocide and pretty much everything we would today hold in disgust. The selective readings of the “modern” church are simply an attempt at keeping the regime together when it’s foundations are so evidently crumbling.
Leading on from this, and relating to a point you considered, I firmly believe that the belief in an afterlife, and the belief in an obligation to behave in a way that would please The Creator, is a fundamental reason why people shape their behaviour. If there was no ultimate goal in life (for Christians, being heaven), then what would it matter how we behave in life. This is not to say that I am trying to empirically prove the existence of God, but I am saying that even in this contemporary society that you rightly said has developed greatly from the times of "shepheards", religion is far from a bad thing!
On the contrary, unfailing belief in the afterlife through indoctrination can and does lead to horrors. At its most extreme, suicide bombers are invariably convinced they are on the road to heaven and are acting with gods blessing.
Sorry – but to me, the idea of an ultimate goal in life being entry to heaven (when there is absolutely no evidence of its existence) just shows successful indoctrination! My ultimate goal in life being the happiness and wellbeing of those in my care. This certainly does not come from any religious upbringing – it’s part of human existence since long before the advent of Christianity.
Of course, I am not persecuting all 'non-believers' as immoral, but am simply arguing that without the basis of religious guidance, the behaviour of mankind would be far worse.
Quite the opposite viewpoint here- it is religion and the unswerving adoption of conflicting doctrines which is often at the root of the evils of mankinds behaviour.
Just one more point. Does there have to be a definitive divide between religion and knowledge? There are, after all, many scholars who are followers of faith. Even in Blackburn!
Ah yes, I’m reminded of my slightly mad old headmaster, a CofE vicar.....
In answer -
Of course not, but both the old testament and new testament are crammed full of quotes telling us that knowledge is the enemy of faith (it was even one of Martin Luthor King’s favourite phrases) .......but now it’s time to go the pub – I’ll leave that one for your weekend study – good luck.
I might even go to Mass this weekend (the South London nightclub, that is!)
Now that is somewhere I would encourage you to go on Sunday, just for the afterparty.
Posted by: Tom Daggett, Blackburn Cathedral on 5:54pm Fri 29 Feb 08
"Various parts of the bible encourage gang rape". That made me chuckle (not at the thought of gang rape, though!). Just wondering whether you could lead me in the direction of any evidence??
For the rest, undeniably, you have consistently good logic, and for the first time, perhaps, during this lent blog, I have to say "Well done, Marcus!".
You have left me with an interestingpoint to consider regarding knowlege. Perhaps the fear of knowledge exploiting religious 'fallacies' are the reason for such condemnation, admittedly. I see exactly what you're saying, but my inspiration from Christ remains unfaltered!
Enjoy the pub, and club. I'm actually just off for some chile and rice (recommendable from M&S- the smell is drawing me near!). That's where my weekend begins; enjoy yours, Marcus!
"Various parts of the bible encourage gang rape". That made me chuckle (not at the thought of gang rape, though!). Just wondering whether you could lead me in the direction of any evidence??
For the rest, undeniably, you have consistently good logic, and for the first time, perhaps, during this lent blog, I have to say "Well done, Marcus!".
You have left me with an interestingpoint to consider regarding knowlege. Perhaps the fear of knowledge exploiting religious 'fallacies' are the reason for such condemnation, admittedly. I see exactly what you're saying, but my inspiration from Christ remains unfaltered!
Enjoy the pub, and club. I'm actually just off for some chile and rice (recommendable from M&S- the smell is drawing me near!). That's where my weekend begins; enjoy yours, Marcus!
Posted by: simplysimon, burnley on 12:20pm Sat 1 Mar 08
Dear Tom,
I am not in the competition business. I am not competing with Theists or Atheists. I am not talking about a way of getting 'closer' to God. Which as no-one is actually able to identify God must be a 'subjective' experience a matter of Personal Faith. No!
What I am talking about is showing you the Eternal. That one thing that is not in any way subject to time or bound by space. That one thing that is not alloyed with any other thing. That one thing that is by it's own nature Eternal, Everlasting, Unchangeable.
If you like to use the word-label SOUL then I can show you the Soul. In fact, to be even more precise, I can show you your Soul.
You will be the one to study and test it and understand it and enjoy it. I cannot do that for you. Nobody else can Understand it for you.
You mention [bold]proof[/bold] in your recent post. Please consider this; In a temporary Universe, which this Physical Universe most certainly is, The Existence of the One Eternal would not require any proof. It would be so self-evident that no evidential proof would need to be created. No Proof of the Eternal exists. The Eternal is self-evident, it does not require any proof.
The Eternal is Invisible.The Physical Universe is visible. I can show you that which is Invisible. It can be pointed out to you, it can be pointed out to anyone who is sincere.
Dear Tom,
I am not in the competition business. I am not competing with Theists or Atheists. I am not talking about a way of getting 'closer' to God. Which as no-one is actually able to identify God must be a 'subjective' experience a matter of Personal Faith. No!
What I am talking about is showing you the Eternal. That one thing that is not in any way subject to time or bound by space. That one thing that is not alloyed with any other thing. That one thing that is by it's own nature Eternal, Everlasting, Unchangeable.
If you like to use the word-label SOUL then I can show you the Soul. In fact, to be even more precise, I can show you your Soul.
You will be the one to study and test it and understand it and enjoy it. I cannot do that for you. Nobody else can Understand it for you.
You mention proof in your recent post. Please consider this; In a temporary Universe, which this Physical Universe most certainly is, The Existence of the One Eternal would not require any proof. It would be so self-evident that no evidential proof would need to be created. No Proof of the Eternal exists. The Eternal is self-evident, it does not require any proof.
The Eternal is Invisible.The Physical Universe is visible. I can show you that which is Invisible. It can be pointed out to you, it can be pointed out to anyone who is sincere.
Posted by: Tom Daggett, Blackburn Cathedral on 1:11pm Sat 1 Mar 08
Simplysimon, I'm slightly baffled as to how you are able to show me my own soul, and as to how you can show me the invisible, but you do raise some interesting points.
I've always wondered, if God created the universe, then who created God. For a while, I thought that God was the universe; it might be a less confusing explanation! But if you believe in God, then there is your proof of the eternal. Your concerns reflect those of mankind in general; theists and atheists - everyone wants answers. Answers have come to be demanded far too often in comtemporary times, I think, politically, and in terms of religion. Some things simply have to remain enigmatic. The eternal must simply be accepted as an enigma, and you are then the one to choose whether or not you believe.
Simplysimon, I'm slightly baffled as to how you are able to show me my own soul, and as to how you can show me the invisible, but you do raise some interesting points.
I've always wondered, if God created the universe, then who created God. For a while, I thought that God was the universe; it might be a less confusing explanation! But if you believe in God, then there is your proof of the eternal. Your concerns reflect those of mankind in general; theists and atheists - everyone wants answers. Answers have come to be demanded far too often in comtemporary times, I think, politically, and in terms of religion. Some things simply have to remain enigmatic. The eternal must simply be accepted as an enigma, and you are then the one to choose whether or not you believe.
Posted by: simplysimon, burnley on 4:25pm Sat 1 Mar 08
Wh created God? It's a fair question. The answer to it is very simple -
When you Discover the One Eternal. You can ask the One Eternal.
The Eternal is not an enigma. Unless you limit the Eternal to being an enigma. I would not advise any Man to impose limits on the Eternal.
I would suggest that a Man takes the steps necessary in his Life to Discover the Eternal, before pre-judging what it is and what it is not. The Eternal is not subject to mans belief or non-belief. Man is the subject of the Eternal whether he believes or dis-believes.
Wh created God? It's a fair question. The answer to it is very simple -
When you Discover the One Eternal. You can ask the One Eternal.
The Eternal is not an enigma. Unless you limit the Eternal to being an enigma. I would not advise any Man to impose limits on the Eternal.
I would suggest that a Man takes the steps necessary in his Life to Discover the Eternal, before pre-judging what it is and what it is not. The Eternal is not subject to mans belief or non-belief. Man is the subject of the Eternal whether he believes or dis-believes.
Posted by: Alex, Blackburn on 11:23am Sun 2 Mar 08
Tom,
I think the reason that teenagers are not attending church is that schools set too mutch corse work and homework. This weighs everyone down and our weekends are spent doing homework and coursework and i only just have enough time usually to come to church on a sunday.
Tom,
I think the reason that teenagers are not attending church is that schools set too mutch corse work and homework. This weighs everyone down and our weekends are spent doing homework and coursework and i only just have enough time usually to come to church on a sunday.
[quote]Various parts of the bible encourage gang rape". That made me chuckle (not at the thought of gang rape, though!). Just wondering whether you could lead me in the direction of any evidence??[/quote]
Maybe you shouldn't chuckle. Digging out from he back of my mind with a little help from google, here's a few examples. The sort of foul rubbish that religious nutters use to justify their actions - it's the word of god, god did it, so can we . . . (a bit of cut&paste here from other sites here.....)This isby no means a complete list.
[bold]WHY THE OLD TESTAMENT SHOULD NEVER BE THE BASIS FOR A LEGAL SYSTEM OR MORAL CODE[/bold]
(and don’t give me that counter argument of “it’s all allegorical” because the texts below have been used as justification by religious types for their actions.
[italic][bold]Judges – book 19 – gang rape, and dismemberment[/bold] [/italic]
[italic]'Here is my virgin daughter and his concubine. Abuse them and do to them whatever you wish, but do not do such a disgraceful thing to this man! The men would not listen to him, so the Levite took his concubine and sent her outside to them.The men raped her and abused her all night. At dawn they let her go, and the girl went back to the house where her master was staying, and she fell down and lay there until morning. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house, preparing to to start on his journey, there was his concubine laying on the doorstep with her hand on the threshhold. 'Get up. Let's go,' he said to her, but there was no response.So he put her on a donkey and headed home. When he reached his house, he took a knife and carved up his concubine into twelve pieces.[/italic]
[bold][italic]Genesis 16:2[/italic] [/bold] : Pr[italic]Sarah gave permission to her husband Abraham to engage in sexual intercourse with her maid, Hagar: "Sarai said unto Abram...I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her."[/italic] [bold]Pesumably this was done without the consent of Hagar, who had such a low status in the society of the day that she was required to submit to multiple rapes at her owner's command.[/bold]
[bold]GANG RAPE[/bold]
[italic][bold]Genesis 19:8:[/bold][/italic] [italic]The men of Sodom gathered around Lot's house, and asked that he bring his two guests out so that the men can "know" them[/italic] . This is frequently interpreted as a desire to gang rape the visitors, although other interpretations are possible. [bold]Lot offers his two virgin daughters to be raped instead[/bold] : He is recorded as saying: "[italic]I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes[/italic] ." Yet, even after this despicable act, Lot is still regarded as an honorable man, worth saving from the destruction of the city. [italic]Allowing one's daughters to be sexually assaulted by multiple rapists appears to be treated as a minor transgression, because of the low status of the young women[/italic] .
More Gang Rape
[bold][italic]Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead[/italic] [/bold] (Judges 21:)
[italic]So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.[/italic] [bold][italic]More Gang Rape as commanded by Moses[/italic][/bold] [italic]Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
"Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man[/italic] . [bold][italic]Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
[/italic] [/bold]
[bold]Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.[/bold]
[italic][bold]More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)[/bold][/italic]
[italic]As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your Go
[bold][italic]MARRY YOUR RAPIST[/italic] d has given you[/italic] .[/bold]
[italic][italic][bold]What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?[/bold][/italic] [/italic]
[bold][italic]Deuteronomy 22:28-29 ) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT[/italic][/bold] )
[italic]If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
[/italic]
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? [bold]Answer: God[/bold] .
[italic][bold]Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)[/bold][/italic]
[italic] If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
[/italic]
It is clear that God doesn't give a **** about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property
[bold][italic]Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)[/italic][/bold]
[italic]"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
[/italic]
[bold] Once again God approves of forcible rape.[/bold]
[bold]Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)[/bold]
[italic]When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
[/italic]
[italic]God as the inspiration for rape, murder, infanticide[/italic]
[italic]Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)[/italic]
[italic][bold]Jusitification of Genocide[/bold][/italic]
[italic]"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:6-7)[/italic]
The Bible as a source of moral code?
Completely unacceptable.
A source document to brainwash people into doing evil, perhaps.......
Various parts of the bible encourage gang rape". That made me chuckle (not at the thought of gang rape, though!). Just wondering whether you could lead me in the direction of any evidence??
Maybe you shouldn't chuckle. Digging out from he back of my mind with a little help from google, here's a few examples. The sort of foul rubbish that religious nutters use to justify their actions - it's the word of god, god did it, so can we . . . (a bit of cut&paste here from other sites here.....)This isby no means a complete list.
WHY THE OLD TESTAMENT SHOULD NEVER BE THE BASIS FOR A LEGAL SYSTEM OR MORAL CODE
(and don’t give me that counter argument of “it’s all allegorical” because the texts below have been used as justification by religious types for their actions.
Judges – book 19 – gang rape, and dismemberment 'Here is my virgin daughter and his concubine. Abuse them and do to them whatever you wish, but do not do such a disgraceful thing to this man! The men would not listen to him, so the Levite took his concubine and sent her outside to them.The men raped her and abused her all night. At dawn they let her go, and the girl went back to the house where her master was staying, and she fell down and lay there until morning. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house, preparing to to start on his journey, there was his concubine laying on the doorstep with her hand on the threshhold. 'Get up. Let's go,' he said to her, but there was no response.So he put her on a donkey and headed home. When he reached his house, he took a knife and carved up his concubine into twelve pieces.
Genesis 16:2 : PrSarah gave permission to her husband Abraham to engage in sexual intercourse with her maid, Hagar: "Sarai said unto Abram...I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her."Pesumably this was done without the consent of Hagar, who had such a low status in the society of the day that she was required to submit to multiple rapes at her owner's command. GANG RAPE Genesis 19:8:The men of Sodom gathered around Lot's house, and asked that he bring his two guests out so that the men can "know" them . This is frequently interpreted as a desire to gang rape the visitors, although other interpretations are possible. Lot offers his two virgin daughters to be raped instead : He is recorded as saying: "I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes ." Yet, even after this despicable act, Lot is still regarded as an honorable man, worth saving from the destruction of the city. Allowing one's daughters to be sexually assaulted by multiple rapists appears to be treated as a minor transgression, because of the low status of the young women .
More Gang Rape Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:) So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.More Gang Rape as commanded by MosesMurder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
"Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man . Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.
More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your Go MARRY YOUR RAPIST d has given you . What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 ) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT ) If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God . Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB) If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.
It is clear that God doesn't give a **** about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans "property
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB) "When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Once again God approves of forcible rape.
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
God as the inspiration for rape, murder, infanticide Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16) Jusitification of Genocide "And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:6-7)
The Bible as a source of moral code?
Completely unacceptable.
A source document to brainwash people into doing evil, perhaps.......
Posted by: Tom Daggett, Blackburn Cathedral on 5:37pm Mon 3 Mar 08
Marcus, thanks for justifying your thoughts. However, Judges book 19 does NOT encourage gang rape!!! The 'concubine' is cut up into 12 pieces because she was raped, and is therefore unclean in the husband's view. Of course, one must look at the OT and realize that what we see to be absurd by modern standards (dismemberement), would have been socially acceptable all those years ago.
Genesis 16:2. Is this sexual intercourse not consensual, seeing as the wife is in charge of the maid, and has given her permission? The intercourse was not for the pleasure of the man, it had the purpose that the wife may have the child. Not quite the same as rape to satisfy desire, by my understanding.
"Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.". To me, clearly God and Moses do not agree. The way I interpret this is that the women should become the wives of the men, being virgins, as they are clean, and would make worthy marital partners. There is no implication of rape involved.
"What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God" - God did not write the OT. And I'm sure that you'd be with me on this in saying that religious texts DID NOT come from the mouth of God, wouldn't you? "[bold]we[/bold] utterly destroyed them..." etc. 'We' being very very significant. OT folk certainly understood very little of God's purposes for mankind.
Fair comments, though; a friend of mine said "The OT should be thrown on the floor". Perhaps in some cases this would be appropriate : "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder."
But there IS still much moral meaning to be drawn from, for example, the creation story and others, as I discuss in my blog on Wednesday. I hope you'll find it an interesting read, Marcus.
Marcus, thanks for justifying your thoughts. However, Judges book 19 does NOT encourage gang rape!!! The 'concubine' is cut up into 12 pieces because she was raped, and is therefore unclean in the husband's view. Of course, one must look at the OT and realize that what we see to be absurd by modern standards (dismemberement), would have been socially acceptable all those years ago.
Genesis 16:2. Is this sexual intercourse not consensual, seeing as the wife is in charge of the maid, and has given her permission? The intercourse was not for the pleasure of the man, it had the purpose that the wife may have the child. Not quite the same as rape to satisfy desire, by my understanding.
"Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.". To me, clearly God and Moses do not agree. The way I interpret this is that the women should become the wives of the men, being virgins, as they are clean, and would make worthy marital partners. There is no implication of rape involved.
"What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God" - God did not write the OT. And I'm sure that you'd be with me on this in saying that religious texts DID NOT come from the mouth of God, wouldn't you? "we utterly destroyed them..." etc. 'We' being very very significant. OT folk certainly understood very little of God's purposes for mankind.
Fair comments, though; a friend of mine said "The OT should be thrown on the floor". Perhaps in some cases this would be appropriate : "As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder."
But there IS still much moral meaning to be drawn from, for example, the creation story and others, as I discuss in my blog on Wednesday. I hope you'll find it an interesting read, Marcus.
Posted by: charles, lancashire on 12:14pm Wed 5 Mar 08
mr smith seems to be on to something. of course we can pick holes and critisize opinion but ultimately it is a question of personal view and variety is the spice of life. by all means inform us, and help us to see how you see, but your attempts to force this view upon us is stupidity.
mr smith seems to be on to something. of course we can pick holes and critisize opinion but ultimately it is a question of personal view and variety is the spice of life. by all means inform us, and help us to see how you see, but your attempts to force this view upon us is stupidity.
At no point have I attempted to force anything upon anybody.
I have used direct quotations from the same document as the original article as counter argument.
If the author of the original article is more than willing to engage in debate to justify his beliefs then that is good; trying to tell somebody to "shut up" because perhaps you object to a little scrutiny of religion is pretty narrow minded.
However when the bible is held up to be some sort of paragon of virtue then a counter argument is quite easy to establish.
If you can't handle criticism of your belief system and think that people who have the nerve to question what they think is rubbish should "shut up" then that to me is only evidence of successful indoctrination and a closed mind.
No, I will not "shut up" - I will continue to question why the church thinks I should believe what it tells me to believe.
Questioning, asking and not immediately accepting what a priest says is in my nature, as it clearly also is in the nature of Tom Daggett who deserves credit for his contributions here.
At no point have I attempted to force anything upon anybody.
I have used direct quotations from the same document as the original article as counter argument.
If the author of the original article is more than willing to engage in debate to justify his beliefs then that is good; trying to tell somebody to "shut up" because perhaps you object to a little scrutiny of religion is pretty narrow minded.
However when the bible is held up to be some sort of paragon of virtue then a counter argument is quite easy to establish.
If you can't handle criticism of your belief system and think that people who have the nerve to question what they think is rubbish should "shut up" then that to me is only evidence of successful indoctrination and a closed mind.
No, I will not "shut up" - I will continue to question why the church thinks I should believe what it tells me to believe.
Questioning, asking and not immediately accepting what a priest says is in my nature, as it clearly also is in the nature of Tom Daggett who deserves credit for his contributions here.
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