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[quote]And because God has cherished and nurtured me, then surely I have accountability to God too.[/quote] I believe that we are accountable to our own sense of decency, our conscience and our respect - respect for both others and self. Unfortunately, some people don't subscribe to this view and consequently have little or no concept of the way their actions impinge on others. In the past, I have been vociferous in my condemnation of ID cards and a DNA database, and I am still very much against the idea. However, I do accept the argument of "if you've nothing to hide, what's the problem?", and I am slowly coming round to the belief that those people who indulge in anti-social, violent or criminal activity may just think twice IF they thought they could be more easily traced. Unfortunately, it won't deter the louts who insist on swearing at the top of their voices in public. They are just simply morons!

Crime will adapt and beat any system man throws at it. The idea that this will make our communities safer is just another fantasy. It will make it easier for the government to govern. but it will not make good government. It will not reduce crime. It will benefit the Government. It will benefit the Police. It will cost a fortune. It will not be of any benefit for the community whatsoever. But the community will be paying for it. It's just another futile solution that sounds like it will work and make the government appear to be doing something of benefit. A few People will make millions out of it.

Dear John, Not sure what you mean by hurting God ? You can hurt your self. I don't think you can hurt God. You could hurt someone else. Though that would be an indication that you are hurting. You must Love your Self. Your own Being. It isn't selfish to do that. Humans have a big problem, they forget. They put everything else before that. They attach more importance to every single other issue than that one vital central, core issue. Humans need to be reminded every day to Fall in Love with themselves. I am not talking about vanity, or their achievements. I am talking about their Existence, The Gift of Being! The Gift of Life! Everyone needs to focus their attention on that Original Gift! There is no greater Miracle! When Humans fail to acknowledge that Gift, they look for some other miracle to fill the gap, the emptiness. Nothing on this earth can fill a gap like that. No amount of bling. No relationship can fill that gap. These are distractions, they may be comforting for a time. But these solutions are not the Answer that will fill the emptiness.

Yes! The greatest commandment of all - Jesus urges us - love God, and your neighbour AS YOURSELF. I agree, how can you do this if you don't spend time learning to love yourself, and making time to do it? But that demands a critical rooting out of things about me that let me down- that I cannot bring myself to say I love. This kind of reflection is what my teachers of the Christian way encourage me to do in Lent.

Dear John, Is The Eternal Creator not your closest, closest neighbour. The essence of your own Self. Your own Being.? You cannot have Independence from your Eternal Being. Your True Self. You may leave this body one day. Wherever you go whatever you do. These notions that you are just a body and mind, are all falsehoods. Your body, thoughts, wants, are only mortal. Your Being was, is, and will always be Eternal. Your Being is Eternal. Immortal. You are only an imperfect mortal for a short time. You have always been Eternaly Perfect! You are The Eternal, appearing as a mortal. Sacred Knowledge is getting to know your True Self. It cannot be modified.

[quote]Where are you with compulsory ID cards and DNA banks?[/quote] Absolutely against; comletely aghast at any suggestion that the state (given it's well known record of abject incompetence in such matters) should have further big-brother status [quote]We live in a very anonymous society now, and I don't think we have found a way with coping with that.[/quote] Rubbish. Anybody who thinks the internet provides anonymity is living in cloud cookoo land; we live in an increasingly IDENTIFIED society - that is where the problems lie. [quote]When you were known by everyone living within a mile of you there was a kind of brake on the way you behaved.[/quote] Really? As one example, the people of east london who were bullied and terrorised by the Crays would disagree. As would the close-knit sri lankan community of London which is plagued by sword weilding gangs. [quote]In the street, if our playing became more than a lark, someone would tell my mum, and she had an effective range of ways that made me regret my action. Or antisocial behaviour on the bus home was invariably reported to school.[/quote] The same applies today, only today's bus drivers are less likely to deliver a thick ear... [quote]On the train the other day I got GBH to the ear drums for 40 minutes by a bloke in his 50s who was f*ing this and f*ing that all the time. He didn't have the tiniest bit of regard for anyone else but himself.[/quote] So what's the F'in problem? A few rude words? Is that all? I am more annoyed by the grey-suit wearing god-squad types banging on my door preaching salvation from [italic]jeeeeesus[/italic] and disturbing by TV watching of an evening than I am disturbed by a bit of colourful language on the train. Buy an i-pod; problem solved. [quote]If antisocial behaviour could immediately be logged through your ID card - if serious crimes could immediately be checked against a DNA base - would this be the brake we used to have?[/quote] No, categorically not. The apparatus of state has shown itself to be completely unreliable on such issues; it would be very easy for todays advanced cyber criminals to hack into databases, insert criminal moles into the data holders, steal identities, frame individuals and steal everything. Witness the recent almost successful £400m fraud at a London bank [quote]Or would this be so anonymous again that people would take retaliatory action against faceless authority - more violence in the street; more antisocial behaviour?[/quote] Well I can certainly forsee retaliatory action against faceless authority of whitehall as it bungles from the loss of one lot of confidential information to another. Witness the recent discovery of the files and bank details of thousands of benefit claimants in a squat in hackney. [quote]And of course civil liberties activists seem always to be resisting recording 'private' details. What is the difference between public and private lives?[/quote] Is that meant to be a rhetorical question? [quote]I reckon I am one 'being'. If something is wrong in public, then it is wrong in private, isn't it? (By wrong, I mean harmful).[/quote] No. Getting intimate with the missus is fine in private....... Reading the bible outloud alone is fine. Shouting from the book of revelations on the train (I've seen it done) is at least as annoying as a bit of cursing. [quote]In Lent I'm looking at what I do that might be harmful - to others and to me. Just the business of considering it seems to imply that I am accountable for the way I behave. I do this examining before God, because although I might be harming myself or others, I am definitely causing hurt to God. And because God has cherished and nurtured me, then surely I have accountability to God too[/quote] . Recognising personal responsibility is to be commended. It does not require god in any way shape or form. In contrast believing a personal responsibility to god and the teachings of the church can cause severe detriment to the principle of personal responsibility.

Well, Marcus, you seem to have enjoyed that, so perhaps I've done one good thing before lunchtime today. You make some useful counter points - thank you. But quite a lot of your points seems to be about closing down thought or exploration rather than opening up - for example you are happy to identify me 'with grey suit wearing god squal types preaching and disturbing' - I don't think I deserve that. You've just done your best to blank me outas part of an anonymous group you want to rant against. I strive to understand better the infinite care God bestows on each individual, valuing them and being alongside them. And understanding that better makes me want to look at those areas I selfishly spoil the person I could be.

You can only be the person you Truly are. You cannot be more you cannot be less. You can be You! One day, these fleeting identities will be gone. We are not who we think we are. We are not who we have been told we are. These labels are not who we are. The problem, the error we often make, is that we attach more significance to the label that has been stuck on us. We even do it with God. Man likes to stamp everything with a label. Good, bad, right, wrong, mine, yours, saint, sinner.

[quote][bold]John Roff[/bold] wrote: Well, Marcus, you seem to have enjoyed that, so perhaps I\'ve done one good thing before lunchtime today. You make some useful counter points - thank you. But quite a lot of your points seems to be about closing down thought or exploration rather than opening up - for example you are happy to identify me \'with grey suit wearing god squal types preaching and disturbing\' - I don\'t think I deserve that. You\'ve just done your best to blank me outas part of an anonymous group you want to rant against. I strive to understand better the infinite care God bestows on each individual, valuing them and being alongside them. And understanding that better makes me want to look at those areas I selfishly spoil the person I could be.[/quote] Thanks for the response! I wasn't trying to identify you [italic]as a person[/italic] with the annoying door knocking types that come my way, but as [italic]you represent the same religion[/italic] then I suggest that there is a validity of comparison! In exactly the same way as I would consider the senior management of a large company collectively responsible for the conduct of that corporation - then the church should take responsibility for those preaching it's religion. (although as an aside I find that the response "[italic]I'm a catholic[/italic] " generally has them running away down the road from fear of reprisals from the [italic]"great papist dictator[/italic] " !! Equally, I don't believe I am ranting against an anonymous group as the church (by it's very nature) is not anonymous. It is however fundamentally clear to anybody who does the research that the Church has more than enough moral failures in its own organisation both in history and [italic]in the present[/italic] which have not been addressed. Therefore arguably the church (whichever flavour) is in absolutely no position to try to tell other people how to conduct their lives. Stones and glass houses effectively. As an example (one of hundreds!) of why the church can be contradictory to the basic human principle of human responsibility . . . . A (former) good friend of mine in the states, an anglican lay preacher of very strong christian views recently kicked his eighteen year old daughter out of the family home. He discovered that she had been up to what young adults get up to (nookie with boyfriend). Believing this to be contrary to his religious beliefs as a practicing Anglican preacher he prompty kicked her out for her "sinful" behaviour. He is a former friend of mine because once he found out I have a catholic upbringing he decided he would never speak to me again ([italic]told me I'm a slave of the papist dictator with no place in heaven[/italic] Well, water off a ducks back. I'd rather have my family and friends than idiotic pedalled indoctrination. Because of his staunch Anglicanism he has lost his daughter and a good friend. And this man might well still [italic]continue to preach Anglican Christianity - every sunday[/italic] ! Creating a whole new generation of intolerance and bigotry - in the name of your church! As one who cares for a terminally ill relative - still not even old enough for a bus pass - who has spent her entire life looking after others to her own detriment I see absolutely no evidence of the infinite care god bestows in each individual; if god exists (which I doubt) then he is truly a cruel and barbarous character who would serve himself well by studying the [italic]good than men do[/italic] caring for their loved ones and learning from it. I see only the infinite care of family and friends and the science of medicine prolonging life; religion does not come into it. I have yet to see any argument (beyond the ridiculously shallow and transparent) of god's care. Further irony being that as I've travelled through some of the most poverty ridden areas of the world the church seems increasingly wealthy by comparison (I'm thinking of a massive new presbyterian congregation in a poverty ridden favela area of Brazil in this case, along beautiful well maintained catholic and anglican churches in the slums of Buenos Aires and barrios of Bogota) and can't help thinking that the population would be much better off both morally and financially if they were not cajoled into attending weekly services with potentially uncontrolled preachers possibly telling them that their religion is more important than their family. I would also reject outright your well argued comment suggesting I [italic]am closing down thought or explanation rather than opening up[/italic] . . . I would suggest that by looking for explanations to life outside religion and by rejecting doctrine one is truly on the way to opening up and exploring the meaning of human existance. Victor Hugo expressed it far better than I could: (yes, it's an oldie but a goodie) [bold]"There is in every village a torch- the schoolteacher, and an extinguisher: the priest."[/bold] Next post maybe: Religion commanding people to deny seeing what they see in true Orwellian Big Brother style .....

ps It's a very good thing to be able to engage members of the clergy directly in this sort of fashion. Even as a youngster I used to come out of church services seething at the divisive rubbish that was spouted from the pulpit and rather miffed that it would be considered inappropriate to (metaphorically speaking)grab the priest by the scruff of the neck and argue. This lent blog is a good thing - it allows (former) congregations to argue back -"actually vicar I think you are talking tosh and here's why" without possible fear of a lifelong withdrawal of cucumber sandwiches and ostracisation from the knitting circle. So to speank....

One one occasion I vividly remember someone in the congregation did stand up in the middle of my sermon, and as the flow from my lips faltered for a second, she said 'Excuse me, but I think you are talking rubbish.' The woman was my wife - and still is. Questioning each other is very helpful, as long as we really do want to learn and move on. If I tried to come back on all your points at once other readers might feel squashed out - but let me try two points. I feel very uncomfortable when you hold me responsible for every Christian view expressed, and every action. I don't think the church is about telling people what to do. I don't think it should ever claim to have got things right, or to have arrived at a superior position. What the church is is a group of people on a journey. We know this is not the right place to be - a fallen world. We have a glimmer of insight as to where we might be trying to get to - a kingdom, here and now, with upside down values to live by that seem to work. We only have a very small understanding about how to get from here to there, and that is why all of us keeps getting it wrong. But I have no reason at all to give up the journey. And I have just two or three experiences in my lifetime when I have known a closeness to God, for brief times, which sustain me through a lot of the demands of the journey. The second point I am nervous about saying in this medium, because I ask I hope gently and sensitively. But you seem to imply that if God cared we would all have long and healthy lives. So when would we die, and what of? (No one I understand dies of old age.) Last week was the anniversary of my brother's death. He was 9 years old when he died. He had been apparently totally well for 8 1/2 years. At the time, and for a long time, it seemed a tragic loss - a waste of life - a cruel fate. Looking back now I see his 9 years as a complete life - 9 years or 90 years? - lots of enjoyment, some disappointment, some anxieties about the future, often a sense of purpose. I don't see this as any evidence at all of a cruel or vindictive God. But excuse me, this is supposed to be a Lent blog. Spending a few deliberate weeks a year in the wilderness, up against really tough questioning circumstances ... yes, so that I might be rescued from too small a perspective of what I think I know. God moves in a mysterious way.

Dear John, God reveals his Mastery by creating Beauty and Ugliness. If God only Created pleasure without suffering he would not be the Master of all forms of Creation. We are more than our successes and failings. A full Life is not measured by man-made hours and minutes and years. Life is Eternal. What is Alive now will be Alive forever more. Your Heart has been given the Gift of Existence. The Physical body is just dirt. When we realise what we have, we never become dirt again. Children are those who do not forget the Heart. It's The Adults that needs to reclaim the Territory of the Heart. This Heart is who we really are!

Marcus, if you will allow me to say so, you have contradicted yourself (perhaps unknowingly) [quote]As one who cares for a terminally ill relative - still not even old enough for a bus pass - who has spent her entire life looking after others to her own detriment I see absolutely no evidence of the infinite care god bestows in each individual[/quote] the evidence, a Christian (or, I suspect, any other faith believer) would give is as you go on to say, is [quote] I see only the infinite care of family and friends and the science of medicine prolonging life[/quote] Where is the evidence of a loving God? in you. "Where charity and love are, God is there". I have every sympathy for you and your situation; instead of railing against a [quote]cruel and barbarous character [/quote] open your eyes to see what he is doing in you, your family and friends and those who are advancing the causes of medicine. There is an old debate that puts science on one side and God on the other, and it is utterly false. Science does not exist in spite of God, and nor do human compassion and good deeds (to answer your further point [quote][God] would serve himself well by studying the good than men do caring for their loved ones and learning from it. [/quote] Thank you, John, for sharing a deeply personal contribution and a genuinely Christian response to it.

[quote]Where is the evidence of a loving God? in you[/quote] When the technology of an MRI scan or it's successors allows one to see god inside me then I'll take it seriously; until then I shall continue to assert that god has nothing to do with it. Human goodness (or evil) does not come from god or the devil; it comes from the individual. [quote]open your eyes to see what he is doing in you, your family and friends and those who are advancing the causes of medicine.[/quote] Not sure if that was meant to be condescending, but here goes..... Like what? Condemning them to an early death? Giving them incurable diseases? Forcing them to live in a wheelchair? Sending their children "to heaven" (oh, the irony) before the parents? Refusing to allow them to bury their son on consecrated ground because (after a lifetime of severe mental illness) the killed himself? Being mentally ill is a sin? A cruel and barbarous creator who seems to take delight in making the innocent suffer. Otherwise - why do it? Why not make the evil suffer and reward the pious? (Rhetorical question) The church is backwards looking theocracy with the morally abhorrant old testament as it's basis and which continues to excell in causing division, hatred, war and pain. No thanks......I'd rather spend my collection money on something [italic]that does good[/italic] . Open your eyes and think of life without an imaginary friend

Dear Marcus, You seem very rational. But you are more than just rational. You have a sense of humour, that isn't rational. You have Emotions an Thoughts that are not rational. Some things make sense and somethings don't make sense. That's not rational. Without Love and Understanding. Rational thought is futile. Don't put too much emphasis on the rational. You are much more than just rational. Hatred, war, misery and suffering would still exist if there was no religion. I agree that Religion is not a solution. It is not all bad, it does some good, but it will never be an answer to ugliness. Your existence is not imaginary Marcus. Your body is more imaginary, more fleeting, than your existence. Your existence is the Reality.

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