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Remeber Kevin that Video killed the radio star,and who on earth ever listens to the Tony Livesay show..LOL.. seeing him on Granada news is enough,he is just a scuffy git to be honest,looks like he could do to have a shave every now and then,not like your goodself who is always pristine,but they do say that cleanliness is next to godlyness..lol..but one thing i will say about Tony is that he does ask they same sort of questions we do,although unfortunatly he does get the same sort of answer as well,you never did say what would happen to the poor Hindu or muslim Lady..did you?..(doh) Ooops perhaps i shouldnt have brought in the Muslim one,dont want to upset anyone now do we..LOL

I am just Astonished! What about the Hindu lady and the Muslims. There's a long list of others but is there any point of enquiring.? It's that 'new Life' that always gets me. I suppose the rest are just stuck in the 'old' Life version. It does proove that Religion has no 'clue' what Life is. Fantasies and Nightmares are the stuff of Religion. ooooohhhh! just you lot wait till you are Dead!

[quote]...proove....[/quote] James! Single "o" in "prove"!! :-)

Ian, I think it slipped out of my oooooohh! :)

[bold]If you are Alive today you could find your Heaven Today![/bold] Heaven and Hell has nothing to do with Religion. That is a Fact!

How Great to have a Man of God who is not afraid to say it as it is, to often the word of God is watered down to what man wants to hear. God Bless you Rev Logan

Alive,what do you mean my friend?tells it how it is,,he hasnt told us anything yet,he wont tell us what happens to the poor Hindus and other non believers,because they dont believe in Jesus,i reckon there damned and will remain in hell for eternity,oh arnt we the lucky ones to have been born in the western world and been taught about the way to eternal life since birth,we are the chosen ones for sure,may god bless you,Alive.

Alive, I have to agree with Nostradamus. Religion has nothing to do with God. It has a lot to do with a concept about God but nothing to do with God. God washed his hands of Religions a long time ago. Religions are about paper, alphabets and belief and dis-belief. If you add them all up together it amounts to a big pile of Man-made confusion. How much Confusion does Mankind actually need? How long will People look into books to find that which could never be written? [bold]The Eternal cannot be defined or described.[/bold]

Religion is a creation of man. Therefore hell is a creation of man. Therefore it's just yet another sad and pathetic device used by indoctrinated and brainwashed religious types to try to scare people into doing as they are told by the religious types. Sorry Rev but neither you nor any other religion has the right to tell me how to live my life. Your brand of religious intolerance is quite something.

You already have the Power of Eternal Life running through you with every Breath you take. If you already have it, how can there be a way to get it. There is no birth and death without the Power of Eternal Life. There isn't even a God without the Power of Eternal Life. Start [bold]Accepting[/bold] what is right under your own nose. [italic]You have The Eternal Life.[/italic]

JY&SS, religion is man made you say,ok there is a good arguement to be made for that theory and in all possibillty it is the correct theory,logic says so anyhow,but how would you answer this querie... Although the Bible is written by man it claimed that it was written under the inspiration of god,and if we look at the sin of Adam in the first book,and later satan then takes Jesus to the top of a cliff and offers him all the kingdoms of the world,if he would only bow down and worship him(if this is right,and based on the theory that you cant give what you dont own,then Satan owns the earth)after this we have the ransom sacrifice of the lamb(Jesus)freeing us from the sin of Adam,ending in the trials and tribulations that no doubt are on there way,a book that was written many,many,many years ago,i will tell you what someone had a great imagination to be able to write all that,what really makes you convinced that religion is so wrong and has no truth at all in it?

I am not saying that there is no Truth at all in Religion. What I am saying is that the Eternal Truth cannot be found in Religion. Religion is based on an ommission of the Eternal Truth. It doesn't matter if it is a 99.9% accurate account of every single event that ever took place in the Life and Time of Jesus. It is based on the interpretations of those People who wrote and recorded it. An Interpretation will never match the Reality of the Eternal. It will always leave ambiguity and doubts and confusion. Knowing the Eternal will not leave any room for doubt in your mind. Religion can be believed and not believed. Parts can be believed and parts not believed. There will always be questions, questions will lead to more questions. Within Man there is an Ocean of Answers. The Answers have been within Man since the very beginning. Before paper, Man desired Answers. So Man looked within. Jesus [bold]showed[/bold] the Disciples how to look within. He did not give them a book. If Jesus did Know the Eternal he could show the Eternal. Satan robs Man of his desire to look within. Every day Satan says it's over there, it's over here, it's in the future, it's in the past, it's after death, it's when you get a new life. Satan is the one who is trying to distract your attention away from the realm within. Jesus said the 'Kingdom of Heaven is within you.' It is still within you. There is a way that will take you to that place within. I can show you the way. I am not Jesus or a Prophet or anything like that. Someone was kind enough to show me the way. I can help you if you want to know. If you don't that's fine, that's ok. I regard myself as a Realist. I want to see, touch, feel the Eternal and decide for myself.

[quote]i will tell you what someone had a great imagination to be able to write all that[/quote] Study the history of the bible. It's very interesting and adds a new perspective to judaeism and christianity. It wasn't written by one person. It was passed down from generation to generation before it was ever written down. When it was written down it was written in many different contradictory versions. It's been badly translated from differing source languages. It's been "censored" and re-written countless times by equally countless factions of judaeism of christianity . It's whole purpose in history has been as a vehicle for controling and subjugating the populace for the greater good ie greed and wealth of the religious establishments. Watching telly last night (World's lost tribes with Mark and Ollie on national geographic) I was appalled to see that Christian missionaries are still engaged in the wholesale destruction of ancient cultures. The bible is full of blatent contradictions, untruths and lies, homophobia, violence, misogeny and plenty of other nasty stuff that the one thing it certainly should NOT be is a source document for moral values.

There can be no Heaven on Earth unless every Man finds the Eternal Heaven within himself. I am a servant for that Perfect Heaven within you.

Joe is quite right. Religion has not brought Peace and Harmony. It has been used as a tool to give the rich and powerful more wealth and power. Jesus came for the weary and the weak. To release them from suffering. To show them a place that was untouched by Time. To reveal that Eternal place within them. To guide and to remind them. He didn't come to fix problems. He came for those who in their Heart of Hearts, just wanted to feel Peace. A Peace that nobody could rob. A Peace that nobody could burn. A Peace that once found, would never, ever be lost again. A source of Peace that even in your darkest hour, even in dire straights, even in your darkest Moment You would still be able to find that feeling of Peace. There were some People who wanted that kind of Peace. He came for them, Peace for them was a necessity, not an option. It was the Heart that recognised him. Not one word needed to be spoken.

[italic][bold]Hi Folks, I keep getting the impression that one or two of your feel the |Bible is past its sell-by date; that it’s rather passé and full on contradictions. I’ve been studying it for nigh on 40 years, and I’m still impressed with how well it holds together. I’m just finishing a book on Paganism and the Occult and Chapter 23 might be of interest. If not, just keep your mouse of the scroll and ignore it.[/bold][/italic] We had lost the map, and our way after driving off the hovercraft at Calais, heading for Lille in Northern France. The town of Armentieres and a contradictory signpost were our downfall. As we crossed into Belgium for the fifth time, much to the amusement of border officials, my return smiles hid rising panic. Save for the fast crossing, I had been at the wheel of a minibus of weary teenagers for the previous eight hours. I suspect a similar panic is shared by millions in a world that has lost its directions. The journey of life is punctuated with unsignposted crossroads, unpredictable diversions and complex spaghetti junctions. At each inter¬section stand the gurus, modern messiahs, occultists, pagans, liberal theologians and the Bible-believing Christians. Who is to be believed? Do any of them know the real truth; the proper way? By what authority do they beckon and direct the traveller - you and me? The Bible, still the world's bestseller, grew to be our nation's authority and pagan fears were reduced to crossing fingers, touching wood and throwing salt over left shoulders. The Bible became our backbone in national life, Parliament, education, industry and commerce. People, of course, are no better than what they believe, and it can be successfully argued that old Albion - pagan Briton - would never have become Great Britain had we followed the words of wiccan witchdoctors rather than the Word of God. As stated in an earlier chapter, we had barely won the spiritual battle of Britain, than our main weapon – the Bible – came under attack. After 300 years of criticism, we are now assured that it is only one of several maps with which to find our way. This chapter makes no excuse for producing the mass of evidence to show that the Bible is still the No. 1. best-selling ‘lamp’ to guide our steps and the only true light to illuminate our path through an often dark, confusing world (Psalms 119:105). This is the evidence for why we should trust the Bible as God’s honest truth. For those who wish to pursue the evidence further I have added a few suggestions. 1. The Bible gets the future right. Divination plays a vital role in paganism and the occult. Most want to know what the future holds, and one of the realities of the occult is that there is no perfect system. Some would sell their souls for a window on fate. Television prophets of astrology make a fortune out of getting only 10% of their forecasts right. What then of the hundreds of predictive prophecies in the Bible? So far it has an 87% accuracy record! The remaining 13% are to do with the End Times and have still to happen. So, far, not one the Bible’s predictions have failed. These include more than 300 concerning the life of Jesus. Imagine trying to guess the winners of the next 300 horse races in Britain and then multiply those odds by a few thousand. Many of the prophecies were so outlandish that an Old Testament bookie would have offered odds of a million to one against some of them happening. To insist that the Old Testament writers guessed everything correctly is stretching credulity to the outer limits. It requires less faith to believe that God knew what was going to happen and inspired the writers and gave them the right information. 2. The Bible gets the facts right. Humanly speaking, you would expect the Bible to be a book of its times. It should reflect no more than the limited knowledge of the times in which it was written. After all, every ancient book that has ever been penned contains errors in the light of modern discoveries. The book you are now reading has been updated and, dare I admit it, there were one or two errors that had to be corrected. Of course this edition is now absolutely, one hundred percent perfect… until the next time somebody shows me a mistake (hopefully, only the odd one). The Bible, of course, should be no different, especially because it was written over 1,500 years on three continents using three different languages, involving forty or so writers. Humanly speaking, after thousands of years, we should just tear the whole thing up. To be sure, the Bible does have a few odd descriptions, but these are largely restricted to its poetic sections, and poets of every age are allowed a certain licence in their use of picture words and phrases. The Bible is unique in ancient literature because of its remarkable accuracy in its historical and scientific facts. From a historical point of view, Josh McDowell cites 'The Tables of Nations' in Genesis 10.' This is unique among ancient writings for its accuracy. Again, the five centuries of history from the beginning of 1 Samuel through to the end of 2 Chronicles score ten out of ten. From a scientific point of view, accuracy is the main feature, whether it concerns embryology, hygiene, agri¬culture, astronomy, or whatever discipline. Scrip¬ture correctly insists, for instance, that there are as many stars as there are grains of sand on the seashore, despite the fact that the wise men of the day believed that there were only a few hundred. Archaeological discoveries also show that the Bible gets its facts right. Many scholars are today giving greater respect to Old Testament stories for no other reason than that the archaeological evidence requires it. That was the view of Professor H. H. Rowley. Renowned Jewish archaeologist Nelson Glueck wrote, “It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference.” The question arises: when every other ancient book is inaccurate in the light of later discoveries, how has the Bible managed to achieve scientific accuracy centuries before modern science itself was established? Is it really all outrageous guesswork? It seems much easier to believe that the writers were inspired and guided by Somebody in the know? Of course, the challenge of evolution crippled Christians’ confidence in Scripture, writing off the first eleven chapters as myth, and consequently undermining many of the doctrines that had their roots in early Genesis. For those brave enough to revisit this area and examine 21st century thinking on our origins, may I suggest Responding to the Challenge of Evolution (Kingsway). I wrote it to set out the facts as we know them on all sides of the debate, allowing readers to be their own judge of the matters. 3. The Bible is right says Jesus. The Son of God treated the Old Testament as the written word of his Father. Jesus, the Living Word of God accepted without question the written word of the Old Testament. He did not treat it as legend or myth. He quoted from all but eight of the Old Testament books and accepted them in the normal way that we understand words. He was quite happy to acknowledge that his whole purpose in coming to earth was to fulfil what had been written so far in Scripture. If Christ accepted the Old Testament as genuine, it takes a brave soul to argue otherwise. 3. The Bible writers get it right. As stated, Scripture comes to us via the minds and personalities of more than forty writers. It has two main divisions, many sub-divisions and contains sixty-six separate books. It was written over forty generations, using several forms of literature. Despite all this, there is a sensible theme running consistently from Genesis to Revelation. Every section is in line with a perfect creation, the fall of man, his multiplication, the flood, a new beginning, further degeneration, God's prophetic warnings, his dealing with his special people, God's salvation through his Son, a new strength and Spirit to follow him, the return of Christ and finally a new heaven and earth. The occultist needs to pause for thought here. It might help him note the consistency of what forty biblical writers received, and then compare it with the jumble of conflicting theories received by his own 'ancients'. Some occult writers claim inspiration. Others insist that they received their messages through automatic writing. Yet there is no agreement on the nature or character of the force, energy or whatever. It is not known if there is one force or many. There is a multitude of paths to reach the force or forces. Above all they do not even know whether or not they have got the truth, nor even if truth can be known. The Bible, on the other hand, is entirely relevant to the human condition, and our strengths, weaknesses and environ¬ment. For the most part, it does it in down-to-earth, practical language. Though written centuries ago, its principles and truths are more up-to-date than the latest 'hi-Tec' science manual. This book makes sense of life. It also makes sense that Somebody in charge must have been guiding the writers, spread out as they were over centuries, generations, conti¬nents and languages. Pagans, occultists and liberal churchmen have one thing in common: they prefer to reduce the Bible, especially the Gospels, to nothing more than legend. Perhaps that’s a little unfair on some of occultists who actually accept the miraculous, such as the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection. In general, however, all parties believe that the Gospel writers were sincere men who used an honest way of writing called myth. The idea of myth is originally based on the idea that the stories of the New Testament circulated by word of mouth for many years before being committed to parchment. The pro-myth lobby claim that as the stories circulated, the facts were set aside and legends were formed. Rudolph Bultmann was a leading modern thinker behind this trend. The writers of the New Testament, however, could not disagree more. Paul stated that he was passing on to the Corinthians what was of the greatest importance! Christ had died and had risen again. Paul, writing 20 years after the event, implied that if any of his readers doubted the resurrection, then they could go and interview some of the 500 followers who had seen Jesus alive and well after his death and burial (1 Corinthians 15:6f). Luke, that most meticulous of doctors who always checked his facts, reported that the risen Christ went to great lengths to show his disciples that he was flesh and bone. This was no imagined appearance, no mere subjective 'resurrection experience'. This was the real thing; the real Jesus who sat down to a meal of cooked fish (Luke 24:36-43). The writer of 2 Peter assured his readers that he had not depended on 'made-up' stories. He seemed like he had met the forerunners of our modern Mr Bultmann. These New Testament writers were either deliberate liars or they were writing the truth. Liars do not generally take to the streets and suffer torture and agonising deaths in defence of their lies! There is also much that is questionable about the ideas of the pro-myth parties. Normally, myth takes many centuries to develop and has never been known to survive on such a scale as the gospels while witnesses to the actual events were still living. It is interesting to note that non-Christian writers of the first century did not contradict the basic elements of the gospel. Any one of them would have been delighted to record the remotest suggestion of 'make-believe' or myth. But they did not! Liberals and occultists insist that there are discrepancies in Scripture, but these criticisms are often crude and over¬simplified. Very often they fail to take into consideration the intentions of the writers and unfairly criticise them for not doing what they in no way set out to do. John Stott wrote of the gospel writers and their intentions, “It is possible to condense speeches, paraphrase them, and translate them into a different cultural idiom, without thereby falsifying their meaning; to change the sequence of events, deliberately subordinating chronology to theology, without this practice committing an error; to give round figures and make free quotations, according to the literary conventions of the pre-computer age, without being accused of making mistakes (imprecision is not a synonym for inaccuracy); and to quote the Old Testament in such a way as to draw attention to the principle, parallel or pattern, rather than the detailed fulfilment of a specific prophecy, without being guilty of misquotation.” 4. The Bible claims to be right. Most of the authors claimed that what they were writing was inspired by God; not once, but thousands of times. “Thus says the Lord... “, they kept insisting. “Well, they would, wouldn't they?' one witch scoffed as we talked about authority during one of her coven meetings to which I and two Christian friends had been invited. The witch missed the obvious point. Writers who were liars might certainly claim God's inspiration, but what could they possibly gain by including graphic accounts of their own shameful faults? That would be the last thing a fraud would do. On the other hand, it would be the first action of an honest writer! What about the Bible's morality? If the writers were liars or myth-makers, then they were the greatest con-artists in history. Why would they endlessly dwell on truth and justice, morality and righteousness for page after page? How could the world's greatest crooks conjure up the world's most precious moral teaching, and for what purpose? There are just too many unanswered questions if we treat the writers as liars. Centuries of civilisations and learned scholarship accepted them as truthful. They recognised the Bible's teachings to be the pure gold of morality and righteousness, and were even prepared to build upon them. The apparent contradictions in the gospels have convinced many of the book’s authenticity. Fraudulent writers, intent on manufacturing a new religion for the gullible, would have done a much better job of getting their act together. In my journalistic court reporting days before I became a minister, collusion between witnesses could be detected by the 'sameness' of their testimony. It was so obvious that they had got together beforehand and compared notes. Real-life court evidence always includes variations, because witnesses see things from different perspectives. The job of a court is to question and probe to see whether or not the differing accounts can be harmonised. It is the same with the gospels. “A forgery would appear flawless until examination: the Bible becomes flawless only on examination. So said Trevor Knight in The Search for Faith. 6. The Bible is infinitely right. Dr D Martyn Lloyd-Jones, one of the last century's foremost Bible expositors, preached for 40 years and said on retiring that he felt he was only then beginning to understand the book. Great theologians have struggled to comprehend the breadth and depth of the Bible but none with total success. The finite human mind cannot embrace it. How then could finite minds produce it? It can only have come from a Mind that stretched to, and included, the infinite. Consider also those who search for the infinite. Inevitably, as they seek God, they are drawn to the Bible. A yearning for God is always accompanied by a yearning to understand the Scriptures. Even the more honest seekers of the occult find this to be so. Many of them are like the Ethiopian eunuch, trundling through the wilderness and searching the Scriptures (Acts 8:26f). They read the Bible but are lost for want of a 'Philip' to give them some direction. God sent his disciple to interpret his book. Scripture makes sense of the infinite. Witches, pagans, magicians, sorcerers, clairvoyants, and paranormal experts delve into their ancient mystery writings and find confusion and contradiction. Few of them can agree. All occult systems have their own gods or symbols or personifications. They confess them¬selves in ignorance, always striving for illumination. They walk in darkness and the light that their ancient writings provide has not overcome it. Their combined wisdom just does not make consistent and cohesive sense. Conclusion The case for the Bible's defence must rest, but only due to lack of space. We could devote several volumes to the archaeological finds which have substantiated many parts of Scripture. We could examine the hundreds of counterfeit sects based loosely on Scripture, and argue that imitation underlines the value of the original. It would be interesting to look at the logic of expecting a clearly written book from a God who loves his creatures and wants to help them. We could look at modern biblical criticism, acknowledge its positive contributions to our understanding of the Bible, and then move on to its destructive negatives and reveal the dereliction of its shaky foundations on ever shifting sand. We could enter into a hundred and one other theological conundrums and use up the library shelves of the world with our output. It would be impossible to write that about any other book in history. If this has whetted your appetite, then go on to one of the following: [[italic]bold]Further reading Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict (Here's Life Publications). J.I.Packer, Under God's Word & Fundamentalism and the Word of God (Lakeland). John R. W. Stott, Understanding the Bible (Scripture Union). D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Authority. F. F. Bruce, Are the New Testament Documents Reliable? Kevin Logan, Responding to the Challenge of Evolution (Kingsway). [/bold][/italic]

Wow! thanks guys never thought it would get this response,and once again we all seem to difer JY is convinced that the Bible is a conspiracy by an establishment to make themselves rich and have a great deal of power over people,and without doubt there is proof of this. Kevin can prove through history and archaeological finds that the accounts in the Bible are indeed accurate,he came up with the most wonderfull of stories about how everything in the Bible is right,on this account i can say much the same about my namesake he got lots of things right and so did mother shipton,the works of the old greek writer can also be proved to be right,so as an historical account i dont think the bible has ever been doubted. But as for a spiritual and touching response i have to go with SS,i do see were he is coming from at times, i do feel and i am sure that Jesus would have liked that reply,but that is only my oppinion and in truth who am i in the greater scheme of things.

[bold]Josh McDowell[/bold] Evangelical Christian [bold]J.I.Packer[/bold] Professor of theology [bold]John R. W. Stott[/bold] Evangelical christian [bold]D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones[/bold] Christian fundamentalist [bold]F. F. Bruce[/bold] Christian fundamentalist & bible apologist. Now when I was a stoooo-dent we were always told that "further reading" should open debate, should look for opposing standpoints and then the individual can decide. Your readings and supporting comments are astonishingly one-sided. They show a complete and total lack of objectivity. [quote]So far it has an 87% accuracy record! The remaining 13% are to do with the End Times and have still to happen. So, far, not one the Bible’s predictions have failed. These include more than 300 concerning the life of Jesus.[/quote] EVIDENCE?[ [quote]From a scientific point of view, accuracy is the main feature, whether it concerns embryology, hygiene, agri¬culture, astronomy, or whatever discipline.[/quote] DOWNRIGHT FALSE, WRONG, UNTRUE, LIE As galileo and countless others found out to their cost- faith is the enemy of reason and science. Plenty of tips in the OT about how to run a stone-age farm maybe; astronomy? clearly NOT. [quote]The Bible is unique in ancient literature because of its remarkable accuracy in its historical and scientific facts[/quote] EVIDENCE? It's also unique in it's remarkable self contradiction inaccuracy and nonsense! Iliad is a more accurate historical text as far as we can reasonably tell. quote] Professor H. H. Rowley[/quote] Nice attempt to mislead your readers. HH Rowley is a theologist! OF COURSE he's going to be "on side" - counts not as any kind of independent verification though, does it? [quote]Renowned Jewish archaeologist Nelson Glueck wrote, “It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical reference.”[/quote] Again, another highly qualified theologist. Hardly what we would call an independent archeologist is it? I wonder if the situation has changed in terms of archeology & the bible hince he died in 1971? Answer: YES - for example:[italic]The March/April 1992 issue of Archaeology magazine declared that neither the exodus nor the conquest of Canaan happened as recorded in the Bible. "Today's archaeologists are certainly not the first to challenge the Book of Joshua," said Neil Asher Silberman in the feature article. "Its historical reliability has been a matter of dispute for more than two centuries"[/italic] All your supposed sopport for the factuality of the bible comes from......religious fanatics! Sorry, that just does not count as any sort of independent analysis. Bit like asking 80,000 Man United fans to name a good footy team. OF COURSE you will have a consensus! We used to think tha Iliad was fiction until Troy was found. . . . . [quote]The Bible is unique in ancient literature because of its remarkable accuracy in its historical and scientific facts[/quote] Like woman is made from a man's rib, snakes can talk, burning bushes, the ark was big enough for two of everything and never mind burning the innocents, like the sun travels round the earth, animals were created before plants, plantes were created before animals (there's biblical science for you!) For every accuracy in the bible there are inaccuracies. [quote]If Christ accepted the Old Testament as genuine, it takes a brave soul to argue otherwise[/quote] Instantly refutable on multiple grounds. Christ did not write the new testament. It was not written down for hundreds of years. It is just as full of contradiction (and nearly as full of misogeny and violence) as the old testment. For example. [quote]Every section is in line with a perfect creation[/quote] Which is identical to the "creative writing" course I did many years ago. Doesn't mean what I say is in any way divine though. It's a format devised over centuries by the controlling theologists. [quote]It might help him note the consistency of what forty biblical writers received[/quote] Consistency in the bible? Have you got a different version to me? There are HUNDREDS of blatent contradictions. THe only consistency is its self-contradictions. Got to go now work now, I'll come back to this maybe later.....

Well Kevin, I may have missed something. Your post is almost a complete Bible in itself. You prove my point, you have mentioned every possible fact, accuracy, possible inaccuracy and validation of why it can be believed or dis-believed. As I said, everything is there in your post including the Ommission. [bold]The Ommission of the Eternal Reality.[/bold]

I am here to [bold]present[/bold] the Eternal. Not a belief system.

Nobody has to change their beliefs or start believing or give up their Religion. The Eternal is not competing with Religion or Atheism or Philosophies or Belief systems. The Eternal does not have any opposition.

[quote][bold]simplysimon[/bold] wrote: There can be no Heaven on Earth unless every Man finds the Eternal Heaven within himself. I am a servant for that Perfect Heaven within you.[/quote] Now this is the kind of thing i agree with,when man can live together in peace and tranquillity,without greed,envy or colour discrimination,when you are not asked to contribute financially to the worship of god and we all believe in the one true god. You do have to admit though,it does sound quite a fairy story,but i do have something inside me that will not let the matter drop,is it some form of brain washing that keeps me searchiing for answers?in truth i have no idea.

Nostradamus, Your Heart is seeking the Eternal. Every day it wants to Dance with the Eternal. This Heart longs for the Eternal. It doesn't matter what man does or does not do. This Quest to be touched by the Eternal will never cease. It has never ceased. Every day that you Exist. Your Heart will want to Dance with the Eternal. This is not another option. This is Your inherant nature as a Man. To find the Eternal. To KNOW the Eternal. This is the True nature of Man. That is why Man has been placed in the Universe as a subject of Time. So that he will seek the Freedom of that which is not subject to Time. Man seeks that which he has not attained. He is Mortal so that he will seek the Immortal. Otherwise, he is just stuck in the mud of mortality.

Joining a Religion is not a substitute for Discovering the Eternal. It can cover the desire to [italic][bold]know[/bold][/italic] the Eternal.

Do you realise it only takes one Breath and this entire Humanity is made Alive! I can't Know of anything else so [bold]Powerful.[/bold] I can't Know of anything else more Gentle. If something is the Creator of this Life Giving Power. This Life Giving Power must be the [bold] Life Giving Kiss of the Creator.[/bold]

[quote]experts delve into their ancient mystery writings and find confusion and contradiction[/quote] Equally true of the bible.

[quote][italic]It might help him note the consistency of what forty biblical writers received, and then compare it with the jumble of conflicting theories received by his own 'ancients'[/italic] [/quote] What consistency? The bible is full of conflicting theories ..... [quote][italic]Though written centuries ago, its principles and truths are more up-to-date than the latest 'hi-Tec' science manual[/italic] [/quote] [bold]ABSOLUTELY FALSE.[/bold] [quote][italic]It also makes sense that Somebody in charge must have been guiding the writers, spread out as they were over centuries, generations, conti¬nents and languages.[/italic][/quote] Absolutely right some[bold]BODY[/bold] in charge. Ususally the pope and his team of editors-in-chief over hundreds of years. Divinity? No. [quote][italic]Virgin Birth and the Resurrection[/italic][/quote] Always makes me chuckle that christian fundamentalists hold other belief systems up to ridicule and then peddle this as fact - whilst simultaneously holding the bible up as a document for science!!!!! Talk about trying to have your cake and eat it! Like your belief system is any more believable? [italic][quote]Rudolph Bultmann was a leading modern thinker behind this trend.[/quote][/italic] Priest, son of a priest, lecturer in theology. Hardly going to come up with anything different, although his modern thinking seems to be along the lines of [italic]"[italic]look, this NT stuff is clearly rubbish - how can we try to ram it home[/italic] ?[/italic] [italic][quote]Luke, that most meticulous of doctors who always checked his facts[/quote][/italic] Ah yes, that most eminent of Doctors (Luke) tells us in that most scientifc document (the NT) that epilepsy is the work of devils. Just one of a myriad of possible examples to further refute your assertation on trhe scientific correctness of the bible. THe NT tells us about medical knowledge 2,000 years ago but as a scientific document for today it is worse than useless. [italic][quote]These New Testament writers were either deliberate liars or they were writing the truth[/quote][/italic] What about when they contradict each other blatently? Which one of them is a liar? According to Matthew, Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great (Matthew 2:1). According to Luke, Jesus was born during the first census in Israel, while Quirinius was governor of Syria (Luke 2:2). This is impossible because Herod died in March of 4 BC and the census took place in 6 and 7 AD, about 10 years after Herod's death. Who is the liar, MAtthew or Luke? [italic][quote]the intentions of the writers[/quote] [/italic] How can you possibly know the intentions of the writers? John Stotts quote should read [italic]"I can make it all up as I go along and because I claim it is the word of god you have to believe me"[/italic] Even though NONE of it stands up to investigation! [italic][quote]God's inspiration, but what could they possibly gain by including graphic accounts of their own shameful faults? That would be the last thing a fraud would do[/quote][/italic] On the contrary (as a former fraud specialist - that is EXACTLY WHAT FRAUDSTERS DO!!!!

[quote]The case for the Bible's defence must rest, but only due to lack of space.[/quote] Only due to constant repitition of the same badly evidenced (or completely unevidenced) comments from other theologians. The case for defence fails. [quote] We could devote several volumes to the archaeological finds which have substantiated many parts of Scripture.[/quote] You will find the majority of these volumes written by.....theologians looking to prove their beleif systems! Independedt opinions they are certainly not. Archaelogical digs may help to verify a time and a place (can really miss jerusalem with your shovel...) but they do NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM provide any proof of god or the bible as his word. [quote]We could examine the hundreds of counterfeit sects based loosely on Scripture, and argue that imitation underlines the value of the original.[/quote] Like christianity, for example. Like the CofE, for example. [quote] It would be interesting to look at the logic of expecting a clearly written book from a God who loves his creatures and wants to help them.[/quote] Poor attempt at explaining inconsistency. Surely an all powerful all knowing god would not contradict himself quite so often quite so badly..... [quote] We could look at modern biblical criticism, acknowledge its positive contributions to our understanding of the Bible, and then move on to its destructive negatives and reveal the dereliction of its shaky foundations on ever shifting sand.[/quote] Yes, the bible is on very shaky foundations.

[quote]The case for the Bible's defence must rest, but only due to lack of space.[/quote] Only due to constant repitition of the same badly evidenced (or completely unevidenced) comments from other theologians. The case for defence fails. [quote] We could devote several volumes to the archaeological finds which have substantiated many parts of Scripture.[/quote] You will find the majority of these volumes written by.....theologians looking to prove their beleif systems! Independedt opinions they are certainly not. Archaelogical digs may help to verify a time and a place (can really miss jerusalem with your shovel...) but they do NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM provide any proof of god or the bible as his word. [quote]We could examine the hundreds of counterfeit sects based loosely on Scripture, and argue that imitation underlines the value of the original.[/quote] Like christianity, for example. Like the CofE, for example. [quote] It would be interesting to look at the logic of expecting a clearly written book from a God who loves his creatures and wants to help them.[/quote] Poor attempt at explaining inconsistency. Surely an all powerful all knowing god would not contradict himself quite so often quite so badly..... [quote] We could look at modern biblical criticism, acknowledge its positive contributions to our understanding of the Bible, and then move on to its destructive negatives and reveal the dereliction of its shaky foundations on ever shifting sand.[/quote] Yes, the bible is on very shaky foundations.

[bold]All Religion is on very shaky grounds.[/bold]

Jesus was only important to those who needed to [italic][bold]know[/bold][/italic] the Eternal Masterplan. Those who wanted a book of rules never Understood Jesus.

Hello Joseph Y. Thanks for taking the trouble to reply and criticise. 1. One of your first criticisms was of the Exodus in the Old Testament. You write... [italic]The March/April 1992 issue of Archaeology magazine declared that neither the exodus nor the conquest of Canaan happened as recorded in the Bible. "Today's archaeologists are certainly not the first to challenge the Book of Joshua," said Neil Asher Silberman in the feature article. "Its historical reliability has been a matter of dispute for more than two centuries"[/italic] Egyptologist and historian David Rohl helps greatly in this area. Writing three years after the above magazine article, he shows that scholars have been looking at wrong levels and times for evidence of the Exodus. When placed at the right time, the evidence is there. See "A Test of Time - The Bible, from myth to History." 2. Many of your other citicisms are not so much about facts but about belief. I suppose I could do a similar essay on, for example, the resurrection of Jesus, which you find difficult to swallow. However, I suspect you'd just try to pull that to pieces as with the last one. At the heart of Christianity is a God who gets involved. And when he does he feels able to adjust things here on Planet Earth. And why not. He made the laws and the planet in the first place. I believe in God for many objective reasons which have well argued for centuries by theologians and philosphers much clever than either of us, I suspect. However, there arguments still leave a gap. Nobody can prove God, no more than you can disprove God, of disprove the resurrection. The gap can only be crossed with the help of God. That's the way he's made things. When eventually you get to that stage; when you're willing to stop being your own Lord and give him a chance, only then is he prepared to give you a hand across the gap. I did it 37 years ago and I've never regretted inviting him into my life. It's an abundant life full of hope and realism and excitement. I understand that you cannot accept this. I once used the very arguments you use. It takes a miracle to change a man who thinks he's his own god. If it happened to me, it can happen to you, Joseph Y. Cheers. K.

Nobody is doubting your Faith in God. I Accept the existence of God. I don't need a reason to believe in God. I Accept there is a God, without needing any reason, proof, evidence. I Accept there is a Perfect Place, a Heaven. I not sure about Hell. If there is a Hell, I have not the slightest intention of ending up there. Atheists or Theists, I believe, have also not got the slightest desire to end up in Hell.

I am not here to allow anything to undermine the possibility of Heaven. I simply refuse to doubt the possibility. I don't limit the possibility. I don't alloy the possibility with the constraints of after Death.

Religion has limited the possibility of Heaven with After-Death. [bold]That is not good.[/bold] It is undermining the possibility of Heaven on Earth with it's own doctrine.

[bold]There can be no Heaven without Simplysimon.[/bold]

[quote]2. Many of your other citicisms are not so much about facts but about belief. I suppose I could do a similar essay on, for example, the resurrection of Jesus, which you find difficult to swallow.[/quote] My issue is that your previous few paragraphs attempt to legitimise religious belief as [italic]proven fact[/italic] by claiming that (for example) the bible is a very good source text for sciences such as astronomy. This is clearly, obviously, emphatically, NONSENSE, and under critique you seem to have backed away from this a little as your "arguments" are examined in detail for the obvious circularity they show. David Rohl in addition to the above also effectively postulated about Noah's ark and how it being told as a flood covering the earth is a load of tosh. [quote]Nobody can prove God, no more than you can disprove God, of disprove the resurrection. The gap can only be crossed with the help of God.[/quote] Inherent self-contradiction. A proper catch-22. The OT is a (useful source of history but ultimately an) inaccurate guide to the past. The OT is a very inaccurate guide to science. The OT cannot be infinitely right as it is full of self-contradiction.

[bold] - What is the Holy Ghost ?[/bold] Yesterdays Breath is non-returnable. Todays Breaths are un-refutable. Tomorrows Breaths will be un-refusable. Nobody has ever refused a Breath. It's Presence will never be denied by Man. The past can be denied. Religion can be denied. Nobody has ever fought for anothers Breath. It is not an invention of Man. It is not a consequence of nature. It is The Ryhthm Divine! There is only One True Breath. [bold]Your next [italic]Breath is[/italic] the Holy Guest.[/bold]

Forgive me please - If I'm not sure how to spell Ryhthm.

It does look that no one is going to change anyones point of view here, in the end i am sure it does boil down to something that is called faith,but that does mean FAITH in the Bible being the word of god, as nearly everyone believes in a god of some sort,inc me..

[bold]A Breath was there before there was even a concept of a God.[/bold] People have been putting their Faith into all these other Gods for a very long time. The Eternal Power that is right under their own nose gets ignored. They [bold]imagine[/bold] a God.

Your next Breath is Gods word to you. The Bible is Mans word to other Men. Your next Breath says EXIST! [italic]and you do Exist.[/italic] The Bible is saying a lot about a lot of other things. But it is not the Bible that allows you to Exist! The Bible is not the word of God. [bold]A Breath is Gods Word to you.[/bold]

People ask the question. 'What is the point of all this?' The Point is actually amazing, if you have ever allowed yourself to feel it. Your being on the face of this earth is not by any means insignificant. You may feel incredibly insignificant. But don't. Because within you resides the essence of every single scripture ever written. Within you are the answers to ALL the questions in this world that have been asked, and will be asked and are being asked.

SS it looks like we have finally baffled kevi,unless of course he is back on the Champers with the Dean.or maybe his jigging around at the Mayors ball didnt quite work,and now he is bed ridden,just take a look on the Bill Taylor blog its allways good for a laugh mate.