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Dear Rev, God is not missing. How can the Eternal ever be missing.? How can the Eternal be absent? How can the Eternal not be present even for one millisecond! The Problem with Mankind is that he has not yet Discovered the Eternal. Man has found a routine and settled for it. Mankind has invented a new routine to replace the old routine but Man has not yet Discovered The ETERNAL. Religious formulae and rules can be converted. It can be Abandoned. It can be Modified. It can be Optional. The Etenal has never changed. It does not need to develope. It is Perfect! It was, is and will always be Perfect! That is the One Thing that Mankind has not Discovered. It is the process of [bold]Discovery,[/bold] of [bold]Discovering[/bold] the Eternal that is missing. Not Religion! there is plenty of Religion. Plenty of Dogmas have been established. The Eternal! still has to be Discovered!

[quote]Our grasp of right and wrong is missing along with those values that came from having a notion of God and his truth in society.[/quote] Sorry Rev Kev, you don't have to have a belief in any kind of god to know the difference between right and wrong - you simply need to be a decent human being who has been taught respect - and accepted that teaching. I do, however, agree that the church can play it's part in forming people's behaviour patterns, but it is not the exclusive preserve of the church. Teaching our youngsters how to behave is the moral responsibility of [bold]EVERY[/bold] parent - church goer or not!

[quote]develope[/quote] SS, I'll grant you this one - looks more like a typo!! :-)

Hi Ian, Who decides what's right and wrong if there's no Divine Referee with his rule book? Is it not true that you're able to write about right and wrong with ease only because you and I are products of a Christian heritage that gave us the rights and wrongs in the first place? Rule out God and his commandments altogether and I would suggest that right and wrong are then made up by the strong in society, or by those with money or power or influence. Either that or every individual decides what's right and wrong for him'herself, not unlike today's anything goes society. In this case, there's no such thing as right and wrong for all of us. Whoops! I think I've just run the Grand National on my hobby horse. Better dismount and leave the field to others.

Hi Ian, People make choices, whether they are believers or non believers. Sometimes, People get it wrong. Even very good People can make mistakes. Einstein made mistakes, he didn't get 100% in every test he took. He didn't always get it spot on. Fortunately there is forgiveness, we can be forgiven our mistakes. The important thing is to recognise the error. Not try to deny that we ever made a mistake.. We are capable of great stupidity and great wisdom. Amazingly we can all learn something, even from our mistakes. We can still Understand something. Human Beings have a manual within them. It was not put there by Religion. Religious Dogma has covered up the Original Manual with a set of rules, regulations, and dogma. Listen to your own Heart. It will not lie to you. It has never lied to you. The rules and regulations of others are very suspect. The Heart is made of Understanding. It will not hide anything and it will not mis-lead anyone.

Dear rev. You have not run the national on your hobbyhorse. Your Devotion is recognised. Without Devotion there is nothing up ahead. I Bow to Your Devotion. I am not here to dismiss it. Many years ago, you wanted to Discover something. You were very young, It was hard to pinpoint what it was. Although you did not know what it was exactly, you still wondered about it. After a while, you stopped wondering about it. You got on with your life and your Life got on with you. Thats fine, Your Life is Unique. We do not control everything. The Heart does not stop wanting to Discover something. We might get distracted with all the issues that Life presents to us, but the Heart within mans [bold]Being[/bold] still thirsts to 'Know' still wants to 'Discover'. That Thirst will never ever end. There is a possibility, that the Thirst can be Fulfilled.

Every day, no matter what the developements we go through. the Thirst in your Heart is there. Every Day no matter what we go through, this Thirst can be Fulfilled. Not just once! But every single day we exist! This Thirst can be addressed. If it can be forgotten, it can be remembered. Even the rememberance of this Thirst is sweet. It can be Fulfilled! Again and again and again!

[quote]Who decides what's right and wrong if there's no Divine Referee with his rule book?[/quote] Hi Kevin Sorry to have taken so long to come back to you - been a bit ill for a day or two - presumably because I am not one of "the strong in society". Your assertion as detailed above owes no more to a religious upbringing than to a decent humanist view. I am a human being and recognise that every one else on this planet is! I know how I want to be treated and it is a purely human condition to want to treat others in the same way - even if it's only because they may think better of you for it. Of course, there are those who try - and succeed - in preying on others, but they are the minority and are (supposedly) dealt with by our legal system. Before you try and contradict me (as if you would!!), just remember all the crimes and abuses committed by the Church and the clergy over the years, decades and centuries! We are all humans first, and a faith or belief system is secondary to that precept. Right and wrong are [italic][bold]NOT[/bold][/italic] religious concepts, but purely humanist!

Hi Ian, I agree 100% with your post. The Church has muddied the waters with it's notions of what is right for God and what is wrong for Humans. To be a True Human Being is to recognise those attributes that come with the territory of being Human. Where does Tenderness, Kindness, Gentleness come from. It comes from Human Beings. There can be no doubt about that. Religion doubts that. It undermines the ability within each Human Being by offering a set of vague notions about something nobody has ever seen. The punishment of Hell. And the possibility of a reward. Once you are certified Dead! What does it offer Humans whilst they are alive. An rule book from antiquity. An endless set of interpretations, ambiguities and doubts about the Sanctity of what it means to be A Living Breathing Human Being. We need to embrace the Gift of Being Human. Religion suggests that we stick to the rules that undermine that. It does not encourage us to Understand our own Humanity. We need to Discover who we are as a Human Being. What we have as a Human Being. What is possible as a Human Being. Not distract ourselves with un-knowable concepts, ideas, vague notions and interpretations about God. Every Human Being decides if there is a God in the story of their Life or no God in their story of Life. That point alone makes Human Existence more powerful than God. Humans Decide if God Exists. Not God.

Shame! the last thing i need in my life is the feeling of anymore shame,i was brought up on the grounds of right and wrong as defined by the church, this feeling the feeling of shame actually drove me away from the church. I became pregnant at 17 to my childhood sweetheart whom i loved dearly,my mother when she found out didnt speak to me for days and told me that god would get me back he did my baby died after 30hrs,now i have just about recovered from this horrible feeling of shame and i am now 55yrs old. Shame can be a sentence that can live with you forever and deny you any further access to god through a sense of unworthiness,my right and wrong is now determined by my heart.

What is missing,wow! well i could fill ten pages with reasons of what i think is missing, Miss Chiefs contribution did add another thought to the list,i wonder just how many other ex Church goers could tell a simular story. Without doubt god is missing in most peoples lives and i mean a healthy fear of god. Yes you can argue that we are all born with a concience and in some poeple it is more active than in others,but add that to the set of rules laid down by Moses and we have the basis of a civilised god fearing society,and by god fearing i am not meaning Hell fire doctrine. Aboriginees,Native american indians,Mouaries all in some way know right from wrong from birth so yes we are all born with that gift, but it works much,much better when subjected to decent laws. IMO these are only a few things missing in todays society there are many.many more none the least being a generation gap which i think Kevin means without any roll models to look up to,that part of life was easy to knock down but very difficult to buid up again,and how can you get rid of apathy which is rife.... LOL! i thnk i had best stop here...

Dear Miss Chief, You got your sense of shame from your Mum. The Church validated it. It must have caused a lot of confusion and Guilt over the years. A lot of hurt added to a sad episode in your Life. Shame is born of Guilt, Your Heart has never blamed you. It will never blame you. It will never hurt, punish, abandon or humiliate you. When we turn to this Heart we are always rewarded. You will be rewarded!

Dear Nosty, It seems to me the only possible reason to have a fear of God is because we do not know what God actually is. We fear what we do not Understand. It is not the fault of God that we do not Understand. God has given us the ability to Understand. Do we use it? Do we embrace that ability as a tool. Do we put Faith in the ability we have or have we somehow accepted that we will never Understand. Do we accept the doctrine that we will never Understand? That it is not possible to KNOW? who are we listening to? why are we doubting our own GOD-GIVEN Ability. Don't ever doubt the [bold]Ability.[/bold] If you have to doubt something, then doubt that voice which is telling you it is not possible to Understand. Reject the doctrine that tells you it is not possible to Understand. Enthusiasm! You have it! [bold]It is possible[/bold] to Understand. That is why you have the Ability. Accept it, don't reject the Ability. Reject the doubt. Reject the doubts in [bold]Your Ability![/bold] with all the Enthusiasm you can muster! Rights and wrongs are only relative. Like summer and winter, LET THEM BE. One Spark of Enthusiasm can go a very, very, long way! Ignite it!

Hi James,when i talk of a fear of god,you really have to be a believer that the bible is Gods word,although written by man it was done under devine guidance,now if you get were i am coming from when i speak that would maybe help you to uderstand my point of view,the bible gives you indications as to what pleases god and to what makes god angry by knowing these issues you know when you are making god and angry and yes he does threaten you with a punishment,therefor you develope a healthy fear of god,not a scared stiff one,and i think i do have a good understanding of his word,yes,but i admit i have lots to learn. Enthusiasm,i love to see poeple who are filled with enthusiasm..James.

Dear Nosty, I think what you are saying is that your Faith in the Bible and Your Faith in the Bible being written under Divine Guidance is a very personal experience. One that leads to a very personal and intimate understanding of the teachings of Jesus and Heaven on Earth according to the will of God. A Christian understands what makes God angry. A Christian understands what makes God Pleased. Nobody would want to make God angry, so it is best to find out what keeps God happy. This will keep a Christian on good terms with God and benefit ones own life. I have no objections and make no judgements about what will or will not please God. I have never actually seen what man describes as God. I have never seen the anger or the pleasure of God. I have seen the anger and the pleasures of man, but not God. I merely hope that God enjoys being God as much as I enjoy being me! I only recognise the Eternal. The Eternal I can See, I can Hear, I can Touch, I can Understand. I find God much harder to locate. I can Imagine, fear, dread, even use as an excuse to fight over, to suffer for, yes. But locate, recognise, pin-point. No I cannot do that with God. Even I cannot locate God. I can show you or anyone else the Eternal. But I can not show those who are following their concept of God their concept of God. If there is a God. It must have been man-made as I cannot see why the Eternal would need one.

Thanks for your reply James,i dont want to leave the point of this thread which is what is missing,but i think i need to add at this point that i am not a practising Christian,i am still searching all avenues,at the moment i am reading a very interesting book by Erkard Tolley,a sort of live in the now theory,but i do have christian values in my head from my youth and that is why i am saying we know right from wrong as needed in our daily lives from them.i have also taught my children these values and they are doing fine with no apparent hang ups.

Hi Nosty, Give the kids time. They willhave hang-ups. We all have hang-ups. It comes with the package. We all have confusions and contradictions within us. But we have Clarity too!

The point of the thread is about that feeling that something is still missing in a persons Life. Even those People who have EVERYTHING still feel like there is still something missing. It's odd isn't it, even those who go to Church and do good and are good. Even those People feel that there is something missing. [bold]No matter what[/bold] the circumstance of a Human Being. That Human Being still feels as if there is 'something' missing. What is missing is within you. What you are looking for is within you. That is why it doesn't matter how hard you try or how far away you look or what you aquire in your Life. You cannot find what you are looking for because that One Thing You are looking for is actually right there within you. It has always been [bold]within[/bold] you. Where have you looked ? In a Mosque? In a Church? In a Holiday Home? On the Moon? Under the sea? In to the stars? Where? Where? Where? Where? Have you been looking ? What you have always been looking for has always been withing you. Would you like to be able to look there ? Are you ready to look there ? Do you feel ready ?

Something is missing. I agree with the Rev. [bold]Have you become comfortable with something missing?[/bold]

People look into books to find that which could never be written.

Boy oh boy James do you go on..lol btw i suppose you have nothing missing then?strangely enough though i do know were you are coming from and i am beginning to find myself peace,but once again i have took it from books because i did feel i had something missing,but James even though Kevin see's something missing in society i dont see or feel that there is anything missing in me.I am at peace in my world,i am very,very lucky.

I am doing your trick now James,lol I just thought i would bring this back to you,on a thread earlier you said that Jesus had over come pain and would have felt no pain at his death,i think it was you who said this if not please accept my appologies.. If you have a bible would you please read the 22 psalm for me,and give me your oppinion if you dont mind, i dont think that comes from a man who is not suffering James.

Dear Nosty, I have a feeling that something is missing. I have always had it. I hope that feeling never leaves me. It has never left me. I have fallen inlove with that feeling, because that feeling also tells me that I can find that something that is missing within me. Both the feeling that something is missing AND the Ultimate Answer to that feeling is also within me. I thank God that the Ultimate Answer is within me. So that no matter where I am or what is happening in my Life I can always be Fulfilled. Even in my darkest hour, I can be Fulfilled. I can be Content. I can be at Peace. You may be at Peace in your World. But do not forget, your world is built on sand, it is not going to last forever. When that world ceases to exist for you. Where will you find Peace on a day like that. You have never known a day like that. But that day will come. It is not a question of 'if' there is a day like that. It is a matter of 'when' that day comes. And it will come. It will come for all of us. I don't think I said Jesus did not feel any pain. I think I said Jesus did not 'suffer' when the pain came. He was comfortable with the un-comfortable because even on a terrible day like that. He could still enjoy a state of Perfect Peace. Jesus could enjoy Perfect Peace. No matter what circumstances he found himself in. Pain and joy are within all of us. He was not a Man subject to these dualities. Jesus was a Master of his own experience. That is what I was trying to say.

btw Nosty, Don't fall in to the trap of believing what you want to believe. What Jesus Understood, what Jesus knew, was something that was Eternal. Something that was Impossible to believe. Impossible to change. Impossible to doubt. Religious based faith can be changed.

btw again Nosty, I will do as you suggest and I will read psalm 22. Did Jesus write it ?

Dear Nosty, I read it but I found it to be too complex to understand with any degree of Clarity. I cannot see how it would benefit anyone. I can see how it would confuse someone. I can see how someone might assume they understood it so as to gain some kind of liturgical authority over some simple individual who was unable to grasp it's relevence. I feel some parts of the psalms are poetic, meaningful and Beautiful. It's a personal and subjective experience. Nothing good or bad about that. Nothing wrong or right about that. Nothing True or False about that. I wouldn't base anything on that. Man-made words and alphabets are not Eternal.Books and Mortals are not Eternal. What is the Absolute Truth if it is not Eternal ? I would suggest if it is not Identifiable as Eternal it is not Eternal. I want to know the Eternal. Can Religion show me the Eternal.? If Religion cannot SHOW a man the Eternal, Religion does not KNOW the Eternal. Let's just be Honest!

James thank you for reading the 22nd psalm,according to my understanding it was written by man under guidance from god,Jesus came to fullfill that prophecy and it depicts his words when he was suffering on Calvary,it actually describes nearly all the events of that glourious day although it was written many,many years befor Jesus was even born.i hope i have given you the correct Psalm.Please be aware James that all this is off the top of my head and it is along time since i studied RE mate. James i do believe that your eternal is in us all maybe we just call it another name,i like what you are striving for but i do not have the same desire as you obviously have, i do believe i have found the true Christian belief and the correct way that god does require us all to worship him the only problem i need to sort out now is do i have the faith or belief that the Bible is the true word of god and Jesus just wasnt some religous freak who was determined to fullfill prophecy,at the moment i am really struggling with that part,but i am sure that i know the truth of Christianity and i am more likely going to go deeper into that James,maybe the eternal the alpha the omego will be found there James,who knows?.

Hi Nosty, That is exactly the point. I Know. You can Know the Eternal directly for your self. You don't need to struggle. Confusion is a struggle. Knowing is not a struggle. It is in the absence of that Clarity that there is a struggle. You don't have to give up anything to Know The Eternal. You can still struggle with scriptural interpretations and Know the Eternal. You don't have to give up one thing for the other. Perhaps you like to struggle with these things. That's fine. That's ok. You did want to KNOW the Eternal. When you were young, you did want something you could keep Forever. You can Understand The Eternal, and you will certainly enjoy it. It's Beautiful!

I know this may sound a little vague James,but i fast coming to the conclusion of "Does anything really matter"lets the AoC wants to meet and talk to a lot of chinese poeple but in the whole great scheme of things does it really,really matter,that is only one thing i use as an example we could put lots of everyday talking points and political problems in the frame but in the greater scheme of things do they really matter,hope you can get my drift James,maybe not though.

Hi Nosty, No. None of these things matter. These are just ceaselessly changing events in the drama of our lives. These events do not matter. What matters is that YOU EXIST and you are a witness to these events. Often you have even participated in these events. You have become entangled at times in these events, and at times you have forgotten what is the Important aspect of the whole event. You Exist! Nothing else really matters. It's like going to the theatre. Without the AUDIENCE who cares what is happening on the stage. Who cares about the scenery changing. Who cares about the actors fluffing their lines. Who cares if the costumes are not as they should be. Who cares about the timing, the sound effects. It's not what is happening that counts. Many things will constntly keep happening. If nothing at all ever happened it would be a very dull performance. Good and bad and comedic and tragic and right and wrong and summers and winters and, well, oh so many changes will occur. They are just changes. Change has to happen otherwise it just becomes very tedius. Creation is not tedium. Man-made Routine is tedium. You EXIST! That is what should matter to you more than anything else. If something else is more important than that you are careering off-track. Keep that perspective clear. It's you, your existence that counts more than any other thing you can think of. You cannot even think unless you exist! Have you been drinking Nosty ?

You Exist, That should matter to YOU! It should matter TO YOU more than God. That is the Original Gift God gave to you, Your Existence! It should matter to you. To You! Let that matter.

Of course i am glad and proud that i exist james that is the snctity of life and as i have said in the whole great scheme of life that is the only thing that indeed does matter,the fact you are here to witness the next moment is in itself a blessing we all take this gift for granted when we get bogged down by secular worries and troubles which are from time to time unaviodable inconvieniences. And no James i havnt been drinking not a drop mate..

Hi Nosty, We all make these other issues more important than our existence. The Church has been doing that a very long time. The Government do the same, The Media, The Education system in fact the whole world is telling us what matters. Nobody is saying your existence is more important than this whole world.. It is more important than the problems, the Church, the Governments, the price of oil. Existence is worth Celebrating! Everyone is hanging about waiting for a 'reason' No wonder there are problems....

It is when we stop [bold]Delighting[/bold] in the Gift of Existence that the worries and the troubles show up!

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