What's the Church of England coming to, attacking the very foundations of law and order?
One of its minions (not a million miles away from this column) wrote last week about applying God's Mosaic Law - punishment fitting the crime with an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth - in a bid to improve our justice system.
Now, his boss suggests that, in certain circumstances', the introduction of Sharia Law into England is unavoidable' if we're to improve multicultural relationships.
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This weekend, society is busy distancing itself from Archbishop Williams with phrases like British laws should be based on British values.'
However, before running with the herd, consider three points.
First, should we automatically jump in to defend our law even when we know it isn't perfect?
For example, every time another kid is shot or knifed on our streets we demand change.
Secondly, our law has developed over centuries in good and bad ways.
It goes in peaks and troughs. At present, our weak liberal values mean that our law is in a weak and dismal trough, with even the courts exasperated because judges' hands are tied.
We know it can be improved.
Thirdly, do we therefore look to ancient law, even God's law, to educate and improve British values and consequently our law?
Yes, I believe we should.
That said, another law system should never run alongside an existing one, unless we seek to disastrously split society.
Posted by: Nostradamous, Blackburn on 2:00pm Sat 9 Feb 08
Kevin those are very wise words indeed and i would not take anything away from what you have said,i would like to add that allthough you call him Boss he really in truth isnt your real boss as much as he isnt in truth my boss.
He should have chose his words much better,as we all know that feelings are running high against what most people see has an alien threat(islam)and imo they do have good reason,so to appear to support anything that appertains to that sect is to say the least foolish,just now.
With the gun and knife crime that litters our streets is that the government should take soul responsibility and get tough on the perpetrators of these deeds,this particular goverment will never have the balls to do this so untill these do gooders go,its more of the same thank you very much,prison has to mean prison and life has to mean life,i walk my dog down the park most days and the park is full of asbo's working of the fines and sentences if this was not a serious issue the whole thing would be hillarious.
Kevin those are very wise words indeed and i would not take anything away from what you have said,i would like to add that allthough you call him Boss he really in truth isnt your real boss as much as he isnt in truth my boss.
He should have chose his words much better,as we all know that feelings are running high against what most people see has an alien threat(islam)and imo they do have good reason,so to appear to support anything that appertains to that sect is to say the least foolish,just now.
With the gun and knife crime that litters our streets is that the government should take soul responsibility and get tough on the perpetrators of these deeds,this particular goverment will never have the balls to do this so untill these do gooders go,its more of the same thank you very much,prison has to mean prison and life has to mean life,i walk my dog down the park most days and the park is full of asbo's working of the fines and sentences if this was not a serious issue the whole thing would be hillarious.
Posted by: Informatorchoristaru
m, Blackburn on 8:00pm Sat 9 Feb 08
So is Rev'd Kevin Logan not invited to be a "leading cleric" and contribute to the current Blackburn Cathedral Blog page? - He speaks far much more sense than some of the comedians contributing to that!
So is Rev'd Kevin Logan not invited to be a "leading cleric" and contribute to the current Blackburn Cathedral Blog page? - He speaks far much more sense than some of the comedians contributing to that!
[quote]punishment fitting the crime with an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth - in a bid to improve our justice system[/quote]
Er, Sorry....at no point that I can see in the previous blogs was there any reference to this blog being about "improving the justice system"
It was just the usual divisive fundamentalist rubbish.
Rev K's eye for an eye justice would simply result in a world full of blind people.
Nice attempt to jump on the bandwagon though...
YOU Kev may demand change every time there is an incident; not all of us. Many of us recognise the honesty of the legal system faults and all and appreciate it's evolution through laws of precedent.
We do not see any need to use a series of ancient, contradictory and rather offensive texts as the basis of a legal system.
eye for an eye: The axe-man came along and murdered an entire family. Using OT justice logic, the punishment is to kill all of the murderers family. Nice.
A tooth for a tooth and circles of violence never end.
punishment fitting the crime with an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth - in a bid to improve our justice system
Er, Sorry....at no point that I can see in the previous blogs was there any reference to this blog being about "improving the justice system"
It was just the usual divisive fundamentalist rubbish.
Rev K's eye for an eye justice would simply result in a world full of blind people.
Nice attempt to jump on the bandwagon though...
YOU Kev may demand change every time there is an incident; not all of us. Many of us recognise the honesty of the legal system faults and all and appreciate it's evolution through laws of precedent.
We do not see any need to use a series of ancient, contradictory and rather offensive texts as the basis of a legal system.
eye for an eye: The axe-man came along and murdered an entire family. Using OT justice logic, the punishment is to kill all of the murderers family. Nice.
A tooth for a tooth and circles of violence never end.
Posted by: Ian the Beancounter, Darwen on 11:57am Mon 11 Feb 08
I think the Rev is missing the point here, as are most of the posters. Sharia law is ALREADY HERE and is used only in CIVIL matters, e.g. divorce, inheritance, etc amongst the Muslim community. Therefore, there is absolutely no point in talking about gun and knife crime, or prisons, because these are CRIMINAL matters which Sharia law in this country will never have any effect upon. My understanding is that Sharia law is based on the teachings of the Quran and is therefore only applicable to followers of that faith. As I am not, nor ever will be a Muslim, it can never have any influence over me nor anyone else in this country who is not a Muslim. It's a storm in a teacup which has done nothing more than stir up even more racial tension and bigotry. On the other hand....perhaps the Archbishop has a large portfolio of investments in the media...........!!
I think the Rev is missing the point here, as are most of the posters. Sharia law is ALREADY HERE and is used only in CIVIL matters, e.g. divorce, inheritance, etc amongst the Muslim community. Therefore, there is absolutely no point in talking about gun and knife crime, or prisons, because these are CRIMINAL matters which Sharia law in this country will never have any effect upon. My understanding is that Sharia law is based on the teachings of the Quran and is therefore only applicable to followers of that faith. As I am not, nor ever will be a Muslim, it can never have any influence over me nor anyone else in this country who is not a Muslim. It's a storm in a teacup which has done nothing more than stir up even more racial tension and bigotry. On the other hand....perhaps the Archbishop has a large portfolio of investments in the media...........!!
Posted by: NOSTRADAMOUS, Blackbun on 7:39am Tue 12 Feb 08
Ian the Bean counter just carry on counting your beans mate,if you think it is ok to allow this medievil thinking to carry on unnoticed in our midst,well that is why we are facing a crisis which you are obviously oblivious too ,wake up smell the coffee mate..
Not long ago there was a young Asain girl found murdered in a stream in Cumbria if she could come back,i wonder what she would think of your comments,you in fact disgust me with your approval,and this post DOES NOT make me a rascist just fighting for the rights and well being of all human beings inc WOMEN.
Ian the Bean counter just carry on counting your beans mate,if you think it is ok to allow this medievil thinking to carry on unnoticed in our midst,well that is why we are facing a crisis which you are obviously oblivious too ,wake up smell the coffee mate..
Not long ago there was a young Asain girl found murdered in a stream in Cumbria if she could come back,i wonder what she would think of your comments,you in fact disgust me with your approval,and this post DOES NOT make me a rascist just fighting for the rights and well being of all human beings inc WOMEN.
Posted by: Ian the Beancounter, Darwen on 10:34am Tue 12 Feb 08
Nostradamus - I DO NOT approve. If you had read my post properly without feeling the bile of anger rising in your throat, you would see that I was making a pragmatic observation of the fact that the Muslim community already abide by this code. There's nothing that you or I or anyone can do about it. I am well aware of the murders of young Asian girls in so-called "honour killings" (that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one!) and agree that this is medieval and barbaric. But such acts fall under the banner of British criminal law and must be treated as such. The element of Sharia law I referred to was that part of it which relates to CIVIL procedures - not CRIMINAL. Please understand the distinction. And please understand that by pointing out that it's here does not mean I approve. Murder, rape and violence are also here, but I don't approve of those either.
Nostradamus - I DO NOT approve. If you had read my post properly without feeling the bile of anger rising in your throat, you would see that I was making a pragmatic observation of the fact that the Muslim community already abide by this code. There's nothing that you or I or anyone can do about it. I am well aware of the murders of young Asian girls in so-called "honour killings" (that's an oxymoron if I ever heard one!) and agree that this is medieval and barbaric. But such acts fall under the banner of British criminal law and must be treated as such. The element of Sharia law I referred to was that part of it which relates to CIVIL procedures - not CRIMINAL. Please understand the distinction. And please understand that by pointing out that it's here does not mean I approve. Murder, rape and violence are also here, but I don't approve of those either.
Posted by: Nostradamous, blackburn on 1:01pm Tue 12 Feb 08
In my oppinion the AOC is wrong in bringing up this issue,how can anyone say to another religion that you have some good laws and you have some bad laws,simply you cant and if you start accepting (so called) good laws then you have to accept the bad laws and any acceptance sets a precednce to the acceptence of Sharia Law , this law is not right,in any genuine minded human being it is not right and totaly unjust,by your acceptence of parts of the law you would soon have to accept the whole law it is how our justice system works,precedence's are bench marks.
In my oppinion the AOC is wrong in bringing up this issue,how can anyone say to another religion that you have some good laws and you have some bad laws,simply you cant and if you start accepting (so called) good laws then you have to accept the bad laws and any acceptance sets a precednce to the acceptence of Sharia Law , this law is not right,in any genuine minded human being it is not right and totaly unjust,by your acceptence of parts of the law you would soon have to accept the whole law it is how our justice system works,precedence's are bench marks.
Posted by: Ian the Beancounter, Darwen on 1:05pm Tue 12 Feb 08
Nostradamous, I think we should cease here. You clearly will not understand that I DO NOT ACCEPT Sharia law at all. I simply state that it is here already. Until you can understand what you are reading, there is little point in further debate.
Nostradamous, I think we should cease here. You clearly will not understand that I DO NOT ACCEPT Sharia law at all. I simply state that it is here already. Until you can understand what you are reading, there is little point in further debate.
Posted by: Nostradamous, Blackburn on 3:22pm Tue 12 Feb 08
I am very sorry and the last thing that i w ould want to do is confuse you,but did you not state that you thought that kevin was missing the point?,i would say it is you who is missing the point of this thread,and please stop trying to belittle people,it does you no good at all,so here goes the point of this thread is not wether Sharia law is right,wrong or indifferent but that His worshim the ABoC should NOT have mentioned it in the context that he did,,have you got that now,?
I am very sorry and the last thing that i w ould want to do is confuse you,but did you not state that you thought that kevin was missing the point?,i would say it is you who is missing the point of this thread,and please stop trying to belittle people,it does you no good at all,so here goes the point of this thread is not wether Sharia law is right,wrong or indifferent but that His worshim the ABoC should NOT have mentioned it in the context that he did,,have you got that now,?
Posted by: Ian the Beancounter, Darwen on 4:31pm Tue 12 Feb 08
[quote][bold]you in fact disgust me with your approval[/bold] [/quote]
I apologise if you felt belittled by my comments, but the above quote is from your earlier post - does pot calling kettle black come to mind? The irony here is that we are both coming from the same standpoint. Neither of us accept nor approve of Sharia law. Our only difference is that I think that it is already here but is, and will be, confined to civil matters within the community which chooses to adopt it, whereas you appear to believe that it is the thin end of the wedge.
Let's agree to disgaree, my friend, and, as they, say - "watch this space"!
you in fact disgust me with your approval
I apologise if you felt belittled by my comments, but the above quote is from your earlier post - does pot calling kettle black come to mind? The irony here is that we are both coming from the same standpoint. Neither of us accept nor approve of Sharia law. Our only difference is that I think that it is already here but is, and will be, confined to civil matters within the community which chooses to adopt it, whereas you appear to believe that it is the thin end of the wedge.
Let's agree to disgaree, my friend, and, as they, say - "watch this space"!
Posted by: Nostradamous, blackburn on 8:11am Wed 13 Feb 08
I do agree with you Ian,Sharia law is used by the muslim cumunity now, it is there law and they do live by this law,but all i am saying is that WE cannot be seen to accept any part of this law untill it is a fair and just law to OUR way of thinking and upbringing,now you may think that what i am saying is total western bigotry and you have every right to your oppinion which i do respect,if you are christian however you have been brought up to accept freewill has part of your life,you may marry who you wish you may even change religion if you wish these are just two vey important points of our way of life,so why didnt the ABoC point out that our ways are more fairer and that it is time they moved on to the modern day,in truth they are scared to move on because it seems to be fear that will hold many muslims to there faith just like christianity many years ago.
I do realise Ian that you do not APPROVE of parts of the law but as i said you cant just take part of anything you have to take the lot,the ABoC should be shouting from the rooftops the benefits of being a christian,why does he not do this?.
Thank you my friend and if at any point i have got my wires crossed and misread you please accept my appologies as you seem to be a very decent man..
I do agree with you Ian,Sharia law is used by the muslim cumunity now, it is there law and they do live by this law,but all i am saying is that WE cannot be seen to accept any part of this law untill it is a fair and just law to OUR way of thinking and upbringing,now you may think that what i am saying is total western bigotry and you have every right to your oppinion which i do respect,if you are christian however you have been brought up to accept freewill has part of your life,you may marry who you wish you may even change religion if you wish these are just two vey important points of our way of life,so why didnt the ABoC point out that our ways are more fairer and that it is time they moved on to the modern day,in truth they are scared to move on because it seems to be fear that will hold many muslims to there faith just like christianity many years ago.
I do realise Ian that you do not APPROVE of parts of the law but as i said you cant just take part of anything you have to take the lot,the ABoC should be shouting from the rooftops the benefits of being a christian,why does he not do this?.
Thank you my friend and if at any point i have got my wires crossed and misread you please accept my appologies as you seem to be a very decent man..
Posted by: Ian the Beancounter, Darwen on 2:19pm Wed 13 Feb 08
Nostrodamous, I'm glad we've ended up on good terms with each other. People will always have disagreements as we are all individuals with individual opinions. The measure of our civility is being able to recognise that fact.
I know this has nothing to do with this thread, but to quote you "...if you are a Christian...". I do consider myself to be a Christian because I have been brought up with a set of "Christian" values, which I would argue are really a set of "human" values. However, having been brought up in the Church, I became disillusioned later in life and am now an atheist. It doesn't make me a bad person though!! :-))
Nostrodamous, I'm glad we've ended up on good terms with each other. People will always have disagreements as we are all individuals with individual opinions. The measure of our civility is being able to recognise that fact.
I know this has nothing to do with this thread, but to quote you "...if you are a Christian...". I do consider myself to be a Christian because I have been brought up with a set of "Christian" values, which I would argue are really a set of "human" values. However, having been brought up in the Church, I became disillusioned later in life and am now an atheist. It doesn't make me a bad person though!! :-))
Posted by: Kevin Logan, Accrington on 10:02pm Wed 13 Feb 08
Your last comment stirred some distant memory in me, Ian.
I too was brought up in the church. I went until I was 19 because that's what was required at home, if we wanted to stay on speaking terms with our parents.
I stopped going the moment I left home, though I never could muster the faith to graduate to atheism. I could never believe that all this intelligence, complexity, beauty and design that surrounds us comes from an accidental big bang. I'm afraid such a leap of faith was beyond me.
I spent about eight years in a sort of free-falling limbo where I did anything and said anything that seemed right to me.
I remember my life getting into such a mess at 28 that I did one of those irrational things and called out, "God, if you're there, now would be a good time to do something."
Amazingly, he did. He turned up for me in a very real way and for the first time in my life I had a direct experience of God.
I suddenly saw what I'd been missing.
Sometimes God gets locked out of churches.
I think that must have happened in the one I grew up in. I think a lot of people like you become disillusioned when this happens.
In my experience, what amazed me was that though I had abandoned God, he didn't abandon me. I might have stopped following him, but he didn't loose faith in me.
He kept nudging me, until I turned and looked in his direction.
Thanks for your thoughts, Ian, in this debate and others. I understand where you're coming from.
Your last comment stirred some distant memory in me, Ian.
I too was brought up in the church. I went until I was 19 because that's what was required at home, if we wanted to stay on speaking terms with our parents.
I stopped going the moment I left home, though I never could muster the faith to graduate to atheism. I could never believe that all this intelligence, complexity, beauty and design that surrounds us comes from an accidental big bang. I'm afraid such a leap of faith was beyond me.
I spent about eight years in a sort of free-falling limbo where I did anything and said anything that seemed right to me.
I remember my life getting into such a mess at 28 that I did one of those irrational things and called out, "God, if you're there, now would be a good time to do something."
Amazingly, he did. He turned up for me in a very real way and for the first time in my life I had a direct experience of God.
I suddenly saw what I'd been missing.
Sometimes God gets locked out of churches.
I think that must have happened in the one I grew up in. I think a lot of people like you become disillusioned when this happens.
In my experience, what amazed me was that though I had abandoned God, he didn't abandon me. I might have stopped following him, but he didn't loose faith in me.
He kept nudging me, until I turned and looked in his direction.
Thanks for your thoughts, Ian, in this debate and others. I understand where you're coming from.
Posted by: Ian the Beancounter, Darwen on 3:15pm Thu 14 Feb 08
Kevin, many thanks for your words. I guess I stopped going to church at about 16 years old when I discovered motor-cycles, beer and girls (not necessarily in that order!). I suppose that I retained some form of belief for some time thereafter as I did often think that, if I did something which I considered to be against God, I would be judged on it. However, as the years passed, that feeling subsided and, much like you, I went through a difficult period in my early 30's, but found my way through it by hard graft and the love of a good wife! Perhaps I took my support and inspiration from her rather than God.
It is only really in the last 10 years or so that I have convinced myself that there cannot be a God. I see so much pain, suffering and war in the World, much of it in the name of religion, that I just cannot accept that any God would allow it. I see the religious intolerance between the various faiths, and wonder why, if there is a God, His followers - by whatever name - cannot get along?
Like you, I look at the World and am amazed by its beauty and complexity, but I DO subscribe to the Big Bang theory and put it all down to an accidental, but fortunate, set of circumstances. I believe that our knowledge of evolution supports that belief.
Having said all that, I have said elsewhere on these forums that, although I have no religious beliefs, I fully support the right of any man to follow whatever faith he wishes. Where I do draw the line, though, is when zealots try and enforce their views on me. Nothing annoys me more than "Bible Bashers" with loudspeakers preaching in the town centres, or Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses knocking on my door. If I were ever to feel the need to seek out God in the future, I am more than capable of recognising that fact myself, and feel that these people are simply insulting my intelligence (such as it is).
Anyway, enough of my ranting. I'm sure I've left enough ammunition in these paragraphs for other posters to shoot me down, so I'll go and get my tin hat and await the outcome.
Best wishes to you.
Kevin, many thanks for your words. I guess I stopped going to church at about 16 years old when I discovered motor-cycles, beer and girls (not necessarily in that order!). I suppose that I retained some form of belief for some time thereafter as I did often think that, if I did something which I considered to be against God, I would be judged on it. However, as the years passed, that feeling subsided and, much like you, I went through a difficult period in my early 30's, but found my way through it by hard graft and the love of a good wife! Perhaps I took my support and inspiration from her rather than God.
It is only really in the last 10 years or so that I have convinced myself that there cannot be a God. I see so much pain, suffering and war in the World, much of it in the name of religion, that I just cannot accept that any God would allow it. I see the religious intolerance between the various faiths, and wonder why, if there is a God, His followers - by whatever name - cannot get along?
Like you, I look at the World and am amazed by its beauty and complexity, but I DO subscribe to the Big Bang theory and put it all down to an accidental, but fortunate, set of circumstances. I believe that our knowledge of evolution supports that belief.
Having said all that, I have said elsewhere on these forums that, although I have no religious beliefs, I fully support the right of any man to follow whatever faith he wishes. Where I do draw the line, though, is when zealots try and enforce their views on me. Nothing annoys me more than "Bible Bashers" with loudspeakers preaching in the town centres, or Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses knocking on my door. If I were ever to feel the need to seek out God in the future, I am more than capable of recognising that fact myself, and feel that these people are simply insulting my intelligence (such as it is).
Anyway, enough of my ranting. I'm sure I've left enough ammunition in these paragraphs for other posters to shoot me down, so I'll go and get my tin hat and await the outcome.
Posted by: Nostradamous, Blackburn on 4:10pm Thu 14 Feb 08
Well this may or may not come as a surprise,i am not a practicing Christian myself,when i got married ,my wife and i decided to raise a family we had 3 children and at that point i do feel that i went a bit ott on my need to provide for them in a secular way so i started my own company this took all my time,it was a very a successfull company ,but i did rely on the schools to provide the spiritual guidence my children would need,thinking that it would be pretty much the same as mine BUT unfortunatley it wasnt,it was then that i realised christianity was taking a back step in this world,i couldnt then and i cant understand why even now it has took this course of action, no assembly as i knew it and very little else as i knew it,except the fact that the powers that be thought it may be better if we understood islam a little better so maybe we will bring a bit of that into the curiculam.
Why dont we have a member of our clergy in mosques in the very same way that we have a muslim lady in the cathedral?
Now all i have written guys may sound quite racist and bigoted but it is not meant in that way i have a very open mind on all things,i also like to be able to speak my mind and maybe i am wrong on loads of things but i am afraid lots of the goings on over the last 25/30 yrs have in the main done Christianity no favours at all,these things could have been dealt with much better,and there would have been no need for confrontations with anyone just standing up and making clear what christianity is all about,politcal correctness should NOT have stood in the way of Christianity it certainly DOES NOT stand in the way of islam and we must respect Muslims for that if you understand my meaning,but maybe all this is much,much to contoversial.
Thank you Kevin i know i have took over this platform to air my views i appologise if i have gone to far or caused any emabarrassment.
And now Ian i may buy a book on the big bang theory,as evelotution dont rock my boat,we still havnt got the missing link,or maybe you can tell me when and where this men evolving from apes or something actually stopped and why.Thanks Guys...
Well this may or may not come as a surprise,i am not a practicing Christian myself,when i got married ,my wife and i decided to raise a family we had 3 children and at that point i do feel that i went a bit ott on my need to provide for them in a secular way so i started my own company this took all my time,it was a very a successfull company ,but i did rely on the schools to provide the spiritual guidence my children would need,thinking that it would be pretty much the same as mine BUT unfortunatley it wasnt,it was then that i realised christianity was taking a back step in this world,i couldnt then and i cant understand why even now it has took this course of action, no assembly as i knew it and very little else as i knew it,except the fact that the powers that be thought it may be better if we understood islam a little better so maybe we will bring a bit of that into the curiculam.
Why dont we have a member of our clergy in mosques in the very same way that we have a muslim lady in the cathedral?
Now all i have written guys may sound quite racist and bigoted but it is not meant in that way i have a very open mind on all things,i also like to be able to speak my mind and maybe i am wrong on loads of things but i am afraid lots of the goings on over the last 25/30 yrs have in the main done Christianity no favours at all,these things could have been dealt with much better,and there would have been no need for confrontations with anyone just standing up and making clear what christianity is all about,politcal correctness should NOT have stood in the way of Christianity it certainly DOES NOT stand in the way of islam and we must respect Muslims for that if you understand my meaning,but maybe all this is much,much to contoversial.
Thank you Kevin i know i have took over this platform to air my views i appologise if i have gone to far or caused any emabarrassment.
And now Ian i may buy a book on the big bang theory,as evelotution dont rock my boat,we still havnt got the missing link,or maybe you can tell me when and where this men evolving from apes or something actually stopped and why.Thanks Guys...
Posted by: Kevin Logan, Accrington on 12:23pm Sat 16 Feb 08
[bold]Ian, I was about to post a reply to a point in your letter about God and the existence of suffering and evil. I then decided I'd pinch it for this week's column. Hope you don't mind.
Thanks for the inspiration.[/bold] [italic]italic[/italic]
Ian, I was about to post a reply to a point in your letter about God and the existence of suffering and evil. I then decided I'd pinch it for this week's column. Hope you don't mind.
Thanks for the inspiration.
Posted by: Nostradamous, blackburn on 5:50pm Sun 17 Feb 08
Kevin,dear oh dear,i thought you would be looking for inspiration from a much higher sphear than Ian the beancounter,,<laugh> but then again we are talking about the C of E arnt we,<laugh> anyone who classes the AoC as his boss is really a true christian isnt he?,btw how much are Vicars on these days?,<laugh> and whilst we are on this subject how much do you reckon Jesus paid his disciples? btw who is also the biggest land owners in England?who also have massive buildings to say there prayers in i wonder if Jesus came back to earth now what he would make of his so called flock the CoE,even the monarch in waiting<the head of the church> has now decided to become the defender of the faiths emphasis on the S at the end there,,<laugh>i am so glad that i have shed this hypocrosy,,i look forward to your next piece Kevin
Kevin,dear oh dear,i thought you would be looking for inspiration from a much higher sphear than Ian the beancounter,,<laugh> but then again we are talking about the C of E arnt we,<laugh> anyone who classes the AoC as his boss is really a true christian isnt he?,btw how much are Vicars on these days?,<laugh> and whilst we are on this subject how much do you reckon Jesus paid his disciples? btw who is also the biggest land owners in England?who also have massive buildings to say there prayers in i wonder if Jesus came back to earth now what he would make of his so called flock the CoE,even the monarch in waiting<the head of the church> has now decided to become the defender of the faiths emphasis on the S at the end there,,<laugh>i am so glad that i have shed this hypocrosy,,i look forward to your next piece Kevin
Posted by: Kevin Logan, Accrington on 11:10pm Sun 17 Feb 08
Hello Nosty,
Please, please, let me off.
I promise to be a good boy if only you will let me off.
Don't force me to defend the Church of England. I've been saying the same things as you -- well, almost -- for the last 32 years and still nobody has listens.
And I haven't been laughing.
The way we do "church" today makes me weep.
You're probably right about Jesus too - It would make him weep.
How much am I on?
Well, I'm not claiming FIS any more.
Do you remember Family Income Supplement. It was the only thing that kept the wolf from the door in the early days, and clothed my kids and fed the dog.
It wasn't enough for the wife. I had to send her out to beg on the Boulevard.
Today, thank the Lord, it's a living wage. Not luxury, but at least I don't have to go cap in hand to the government for help.
Of course it's still called a stipend, a contribution to keep us from starving. But actually I can go to Tesco these days and afford what the till lady asks. Thanks for asking.
As for anything else, please, please don't ask me to defend the good old C of E. We'd crash the Telegraph's website with so much material.
Hello Nosty,
Please, please, let me off.
I promise to be a good boy if only you will let me off.
Don't force me to defend the Church of England. I've been saying the same things as you -- well, almost -- for the last 32 years and still nobody has listens.
And I haven't been laughing.
The way we do "church" today makes me weep.
You're probably right about Jesus too - It would make him weep.
How much am I on?
Well, I'm not claiming FIS any more.
Do you remember Family Income Supplement. It was the only thing that kept the wolf from the door in the early days, and clothed my kids and fed the dog.
It wasn't enough for the wife. I had to send her out to beg on the Boulevard.
Today, thank the Lord, it's a living wage. Not luxury, but at least I don't have to go cap in hand to the government for help.
Of course it's still called a stipend, a contribution to keep us from starving. But actually I can go to Tesco these days and afford what the till lady asks. Thanks for asking.
As for anything else, please, please don't ask me to defend the good old C of E. We'd crash the Telegraph's website with so much material.
Posted by: Nostradamous, Blackburn on 11:26am Mon 18 Feb 08
Kevin of course you are let off,i am a christian and i am very forgiving.
I would say though, that again we differ as i can see that the good old CoE is totally undefensible,and it can never be changed,take away church schools and it would practicaly disappear,no one could put forward a decent christian argument on its merits.
BTW my laughs were of the sarcastic nature but i did find it difficult to express that..lol.
Glad that you survived on a pitance Kevin millions have to do this everyday and in the main not by choice,but i am sure you will get your reward in another place,well lets hope so anyway.
Thanks for the reply and i promise i will not be too hard with my comments in future,not that i think for one minute that that would be a problem to you,it all goes with the territory.
Kevin of course you are let off,i am a christian and i am very forgiving.
I would say though, that again we differ as i can see that the good old CoE is totally undefensible,and it can never be changed,take away church schools and it would practicaly disappear,no one could put forward a decent christian argument on its merits.
BTW my laughs were of the sarcastic nature but i did find it difficult to express that..lol.
Glad that you survived on a pitance Kevin millions have to do this everyday and in the main not by choice,but i am sure you will get your reward in another place,well lets hope so anyway.
Thanks for the reply and i promise i will not be too hard with my comments in future,not that i think for one minute that that would be a problem to you,it all goes with the territory.
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