IT appears I've only been practising for the last eight years with this column.
Now, it's official. I've joined the Grumpy Old Man brigade.
Daughter dearest presented me this week with a mug and apron, both emblazoned with my new status, a gift for my OAP birthday.
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Mr. C from Burnley didn't actually use the phrase in his email but reckoned my January 19 column certainly made God grumpy.
"Not so", wrote Mrs. G. of Darwen, "it was your best ever."
All I'd suggested was that God had said nations should be governed by justice, and that punishment should fit the crime. Actually, when God-inspired Moses to introduce his justice system to govern the Israelites, they were killing each other simply for an eye injury.
"NO!," stressed the book of Exodus, "an eye for an eye - that's all!"
We've so successfully remade God in our modern image that he's now seen as soppy and as sentimental as our Do-Gooding politicians who still refuse to let courts give teen terrors the just punishment they're crying out for.
I praise God that he shows himself in the Bible to be loving and perfectly just.
It is not loving to give a vicious yob community service.
It isn't justice to ASBO a hooligan, meaning that he has to be home by supper time.
The way we're ruining our kids must make God very grumpy.
Posted by: Wench, Lancashire on 2:37pm Tue 5 Feb 08
Response to this and previous posts:
I thought 'turning the other cheek' was an act of defiance? And the 'eye for an eye' thing - didn't Jesus say 'don't do that anymore?' Didn't he basically suggest sticking up for yourself without hitting back?
Is this kind of Biblical fundamentalism actually helpful? Just because something is 'old' and presumably 'inspired' ....yadda yadda. Even Jesus challenged a couple of OT presumptions.
If a Muslim spokesperson in Accrington started quoting verbatim some sections of the Quran as solutions for dealing with teenage behaviour, there's be uproar.
I just think it's dangerous to come from the point of view 'God said it, look it's written here.'
For centuries women weren't ordained. But they are now. For centuries homosexuals were cast out of the church. Not now. There's been room for maneouvre, inclusion and a move towards more inclusive attitudes in the church. (Although historically it's been one of the more inclusive institutions. - In fact in my opinion Christianity is a form of radical liberalism of its era, so why are we stuck in the OT here? )
Are you suggesting that the image of God in the old testament is the correct one, and that our reivention is ... a reinvention?
Does anyone even know?
What has the political mandate of one tiny nation several thousand years ago got to do with life in the modern world? Discuss.
Unfortunately far too much in my opinion. Look at Palestine.
I just think you need to take care over how you represent the Christian Community, cos I'm not sure this is it.
"It is not loving to give a vicious yob community service." - it's not meant to be. A viscious yob is unlikely to get community service.
"It isn't justice to ASBO a hooligan, meaning that he has to be home by supper time." Maybe he doesn't want to be home at supper time cos it's not a nice place to be. Perhaps it's a place where he is abused and criticised. Maybe noone's cooking him supper.
In my opinion, Schools, Social Services and Youth Courts have a tough job to do with very low resources and ludicrously high levels of accountability. I personally think we live in a liability ridden culture where agencies have a tough time protecting and punishing (giving consequence) to young people, for fear of litigation.
Can you clarify your position?
Response to this and previous posts:
I thought 'turning the other cheek' was an act of defiance? And the 'eye for an eye' thing - didn't Jesus say 'don't do that anymore?' Didn't he basically suggest sticking up for yourself without hitting back?
Is this kind of Biblical fundamentalism actually helpful? Just because something is 'old' and presumably 'inspired' ....yadda yadda. Even Jesus challenged a couple of OT presumptions.
If a Muslim spokesperson in Accrington started quoting verbatim some sections of the Quran as solutions for dealing with teenage behaviour, there's be uproar.
I just think it's dangerous to come from the point of view 'God said it, look it's written here.'
For centuries women weren't ordained. But they are now. For centuries homosexuals were cast out of the church. Not now. There's been room for maneouvre, inclusion and a move towards more inclusive attitudes in the church. (Although historically it's been one of the more inclusive institutions. - In fact in my opinion Christianity is a form of radical liberalism of its era, so why are we stuck in the OT here? )
Are you suggesting that the image of God in the old testament is the correct one, and that our reivention is ... a reinvention?
Does anyone even know?
What has the political mandate of one tiny nation several thousand years ago got to do with life in the modern world? Discuss.
Unfortunately far too much in my opinion. Look at Palestine.
I just think you need to take care over how you represent the Christian Community, cos I'm not sure this is it.
"It is not loving to give a vicious yob community service." - it's not meant to be. A viscious yob is unlikely to get community service.
"It isn't justice to ASBO a hooligan, meaning that he has to be home by supper time." Maybe he doesn't want to be home at supper time cos it's not a nice place to be. Perhaps it's a place where he is abused and criticised. Maybe noone's cooking him supper.
In my opinion, Schools, Social Services and Youth Courts have a tough job to do with very low resources and ludicrously high levels of accountability. I personally think we live in a liability ridden culture where agencies have a tough time protecting and punishing (giving consequence) to young people, for fear of litigation.
Reading such nonsense on a weekly basis certainly wants me to pick up my grumpy pen. It reminds my why religion can be the cause of such great divisions in society.
I sense a little back-pedalling by the Rev in this one; maybe he is beginning to realise that fundamentalist christianity he preaches with its borderline encitement to violence, misogency, homophobia and reliance upon ancient texts and hocus-pocus has no place in modern society.
[italic]All I'd suggested was that God had said nations should be governed by justice, and that punishment should fit the crime[/italic] The Rev claims he says.
Really?
What was in fact said is as follows:
[italic]The gang members that kill a defenceless, bare-footed man should forfeit their own lives. A nation needs honest justice for both offender and offended and that [bold]can only mean an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'[/bold] .[/italic]
[italic]Modern England is crippled with a warped godless version of its Christian heritage[/italic] .
The Rev's interpretation of the bible would lead to nothing but a more divided society, more hatred, more discrimination.
[quote]I praise God that he shows himself in the Bible to be loving and perfectly just.[/quote]
Well Rev I suggest you need to read it more detail. The God of the OT encourages DEATH for blaspempy and non believeRs, encourages giving your daughter to gang rape for invading armies, encourages incest and is at least as full of genocidal maniac behaviour as it is "good" behaviour.
All of a sudden "an eye for an eye" is seen as some sort of benelvolent punishment limitation in this weeks diatribe.
Complete rubbish.
An eye for an eye and the world goes blind.
A collection of ancient texts from tribes of the desert is no way to design a legal system.
The Rev, and the bible, are in no way qualified to decide what punishment should fit what crime.
Thankfully they never will.
Reading such nonsense on a weekly basis certainly wants me to pick up my grumpy pen. It reminds my why religion can be the cause of such great divisions in society.
I sense a little back-pedalling by the Rev in this one; maybe he is beginning to realise that fundamentalist christianity he preaches with its borderline encitement to violence, misogency, homophobia and reliance upon ancient texts and hocus-pocus has no place in modern society. All I'd suggested was that God had said nations should be governed by justice, and that punishment should fit the crime The Rev claims he says.
Really?
What was in fact said is as follows: The gang members that kill a defenceless, bare-footed man should forfeit their own lives. A nation needs honest justice for both offender and offended and that can only mean an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth' . Modern England is crippled with a warped godless version of its Christian heritage .
The Rev's interpretation of the bible would lead to nothing but a more divided society, more hatred, more discrimination.
I praise God that he shows himself in the Bible to be loving and perfectly just.
Well Rev I suggest you need to read it more detail. The God of the OT encourages DEATH for blaspempy and non believeRs, encourages giving your daughter to gang rape for invading armies, encourages incest and is at least as full of genocidal maniac behaviour as it is "good" behaviour.
All of a sudden "an eye for an eye" is seen as some sort of benelvolent punishment limitation in this weeks diatribe.
Complete rubbish.
An eye for an eye and the world goes blind.
A collection of ancient texts from tribes of the desert is no way to design a legal system.
The Rev, and the bible, are in no way qualified to decide what punishment should fit what crime.
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