THE lady said: "Bring back National Service, Mr Straw. That would sort them."
I'd met her on Saturday last; she'd been listening to one of my open-air meetings.
The "them" were young people who had been causing trouble in her neighbourhood.
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This lady was old enough to remember National Service, and like many people thought that if it did come back it would bring some discipline and order into young people's lives, with the added benefit that they would then behave more responsibly.
I expressed a good deal of sympathy with the lady's point, and of course offered to help in respect of the specific problems she was having. There is still too much neighbourhood nuisance in our area, as in others.
The level is down, and the police neighbourhood teams, with dedicated local police offices and police community support officers, and the local council, are much more effective than they were a decade ago in dealing with these problems.
But I'm not sure I satisfied the lady on the key issue. National Service.
Did it work? Would it now work? I was doubtful.
But like so many chance conversations in town it got me thinking. Maybe there is a way.
Peacetime National Service itself ran from the war's end in 1945 till 1963.
Six thousand young men a fortnight were "called up".
Unless you could fail the medical, or plead that you were a "conscientious objector" and face a jail sentence, it was turn up or else.
Two years of service discipline followed. Some of the conscripts were bored out of their heads.
Others saw active service abroad, in war zones like Korea or Malaysia, or policing the colonies as the British Empire wound down. More than 400 lost their lives.
National Service made a lot of sense in the immediate aftermath of the war.
We needed hundreds of thousands of service personnel to keep order in Germany and Austria whose governments were non-existent, and, for example, in Palestine.
But even by the late 1940s, service chiefs were worried by the huge cost of training unwilling conscripts for no more than 18 months' availability.
In the 1950s too many of the squaddies became seriously disaffected, the newspapers ran stories about the cost and aimlessness of it all, and recruitment of regulars was set back too.
So the then Conservative Government decided in 1957 to phase it out.
I missed National Service by two years. Some may say that explains a lot.
In any event I have no personal experience to call on.
But during the 1950s and despite National Service there was rising public concern about street violence and crime.
"Teddy boys" with their flick knives became such a problem that new laws were passed to control knife crime.
Today we have highly professional armed services.
They have to be very skilled. Huge sums are invested in their training, and equipment.
Much of this would be wasted if people only stayed for two years.
I know of no senior officer who would recommend us returning to conscription.
But is there a way in which we could, today, build on the best of National Service?
The former Attorney General Lord Goldsmith published an important report on citizenship last week.
And there are bags of good ideas in his report. One is to provide young people with financial assistance with their further or higher education in return for a period of civic service - volunteering - at home or abroad.
I'm going to ask our new Youth MP for the town, Minhaz Khelya, and the Youth Panel what they think.
Posted by: Nostradamous, Blackburn on 8:55pm Thu 20 Mar 08
I am old enough to have just missed National service as well,i can also remember very clearly the times you are talking about,and again you generalise too much,in those days you could miss your last bus, or meet a girl up the Mecca dance hall and walk her home and never in fear of being assaulted or threatened with a knife and i can vouch for that,because i have done it many times,manners abounded and respect was obviouse,now in the late sixties how things had changed,we had comprehensive schools(a major cause of a loss of manners and respect)and no National service,the latter was not necessary for the majority of boys but it did a certain type of boy a power of good and in general made decent citizens out of them.Comprehensive schools with there mixed classes really did take away the politeness that was shown to girls in those days,i cant ever remember a boy swearing in front of a girl,untill they all went to the same school and then politeness and manners left the building,i am sure you will not agree with me on this,but as i was part of the system when boys and girls went to different secoundery schools(only Tech and grammer was mixed)and then part of the system when it went comprehensive i am sure i can speak with experience and understanding on the reasons for the demise in respect and manners in our system today..
I am old enough to have just missed National service as well,i can also remember very clearly the times you are talking about,and again you generalise too much,in those days you could miss your last bus, or meet a girl up the Mecca dance hall and walk her home and never in fear of being assaulted or threatened with a knife and i can vouch for that,because i have done it many times,manners abounded and respect was obviouse,now in the late sixties how things had changed,we had comprehensive schools(a major cause of a loss of manners and respect)and no National service,the latter was not necessary for the majority of boys but it did a certain type of boy a power of good and in general made decent citizens out of them.Comprehensive schools with there mixed classes really did take away the politeness that was shown to girls in those days,i cant ever remember a boy swearing in front of a girl,untill they all went to the same school and then politeness and manners left the building,i am sure you will not agree with me on this,but as i was part of the system when boys and girls went to different secoundery schools(only Tech and grammer was mixed)and then part of the system when it went comprehensive i am sure i can speak with experience and understanding on the reasons for the demise in respect and manners in our system today..
Posted by: vikingpower, blackburn on 6:10am Fri 21 Mar 08
And one other thing jack could you please tell me why the town hall seem reluctant to reply to my emails regarding a single persons discount on my council tax bill?Am i the only one experiencing this problem?.After an administrive error on their part last year id seemingly missed a payment and was notified immediatley but try and get some money back and you have no chance!
And one other thing jack could you please tell me why the town hall seem reluctant to reply to my emails regarding a single persons discount on my council tax bill?Am i the only one experiencing this problem?.After an administrive error on their part last year id seemingly missed a payment and was notified immediatley but try and get some money back and you have no chance!
Posted by: vikingpower, blackburn on 6:23am Fri 21 Mar 08
What about bringing back national service for all those that arent entering further education or serving an apprenticeship or for those that havent found full time employment within say six months of leaving school?.Our society has declined dramatically in the past ten years,am i the only one thats noticed that in a society like ours that now frowns upon physical chastisement of minors that the very people this protects have no qualms whatsoever about inflicting pain on others?The softly softly approach isnt working and unless drastic action is taken i.e national service or corporal punishment things are only going to get worse.
What about bringing back national service for all those that arent entering further education or serving an apprenticeship or for those that havent found full time employment within say six months of leaving school?.Our society has declined dramatically in the past ten years,am i the only one thats noticed that in a society like ours that now frowns upon physical chastisement of minors that the very people this protects have no qualms whatsoever about inflicting pain on others?The softly softly approach isnt working and unless drastic action is taken i.e national service or corporal punishment things are only going to get worse.
Posted by: Simon Wilkinson, Blackburn on 12:54pm Fri 21 Mar 08
I'm sorry Mr Straw, but you a few months too late. I was at the Conservative Party conference in Blackpool last year and this issue is something that David Cameron and Michael Gove first looked at around that time! Yet again the government steal good Conservative ideas and, presumably, yet again will deploy them in a ridiculous ineffective way and mess them up!
I'm sorry Mr Straw, but you a few months too late. I was at the Conservative Party conference in Blackpool last year and this issue is something that David Cameron and Michael Gove first looked at around that time! Yet again the government steal good Conservative ideas and, presumably, yet again will deploy them in a ridiculous ineffective way and mess them up!
Posted by: Nostradamos, Blackburn on 1:26pm Tue 25 Mar 08
I know of no senior officer who would recommend us returning to conscription
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I dont suppose you could or would put actual names to these officers,i doubt very much that you have spoken to any because the ones i have spoken too would welcome it back with open arms..or is this keepimg up with the lies,,please give us a few officers names jack i would love to write to them..
I know of no senior officer who would recommend us returning to conscription
--------------------
---------------
I dont suppose you could or would put actual names to these officers,i doubt very much that you have spoken to any because the ones i have spoken too would welcome it back with open arms..or is this keepimg up with the lies,,please give us a few officers names jack i would love to write to them..
Posted by: simplysimon, burnley on 6:16pm Tue 25 Mar 08
What is wrong with LIVING for your country. Why do religions and politicians prefer to teach People it is honourable to Kill and Die for it.?
Is it [bold]less[/bold] Honourable to LIVE for it?
What is wrong with LIVING for your country. Why do religions and politicians prefer to teach People it is honourable to Kill and Die for it.?
Posted by: simplysimon, BURNLEY on 6:40pm Tue 25 Mar 08
Before Politicians start sending People to be killed on the front line, should they not be sending their own sons and daughters first? Or Like a Genuine Leader with Integrity, actually doing the Leading.
That should stop a lot of wars.
Before Politicians start sending People to be killed on the front line, should they not be sending their own sons and daughters first? Or Like a Genuine Leader with Integrity, actually doing the Leading.
Posted by: Joseph Yossarian, Londinium on 6:54pm Wed 26 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Nostradamous[/bold] wrote:
Joseph Yossarian,Why,would this be so?[/quote] Without going into a whole shaggy-dog story but with the benefit of a good few years of military service:
Professional voluntary army = good soldiers, receptive to training.
Conscript army = absolutely dreadful. Couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding.
Professional high-tech army needs motivated well trained individuals - even in the infantry.
Conscripts (unless in time of dire national emergency) make appalling soldiers.
The army stuggles enough to get by with it's budget as it is. Trying to foist the ills of youth society into the military would be a massive drain on resources and would not result in a bigger or better cadre of soldiers.
National service - waste of time for the individual also. Lost time. Nothing is gained by painting grass green or painting coal black (I've seen it done!)
The military also think it's a stupid idea.
Ole granny skoggins should get back in her box.
Nostradamous wrote:
Joseph Yossarian,Why,would this be so?
Without going into a whole shaggy-dog story but with the benefit of a good few years of military service:
Professional voluntary army = good soldiers, receptive to training.
Conscript army = absolutely dreadful. Couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding.
Professional high-tech army needs motivated well trained individuals - even in the infantry.
Conscripts (unless in time of dire national emergency) make appalling soldiers.
The army stuggles enough to get by with it's budget as it is. Trying to foist the ills of youth society into the military would be a massive drain on resources and would not result in a bigger or better cadre of soldiers.
National service - waste of time for the individual also. Lost time. Nothing is gained by painting grass green or painting coal black (I've seen it done!)
Posted by: Nostradamous, Blackburn. on 10:34am Thu 27 Mar 08
Ok Joseph Yossarian,if the main object of the excorcise was to make an efficient fighting force out of a conscripted army then i would agree with you,but that would not be the point of all this conscription,the days of bashing Gerry and the Zulus are well past,there is a need in society at this present time for disciplin and respect to be brought back,the schools cannot do this,it does not seem to be taught under these circumstances we live in now,so for me instead of having the kids in college doing useless degrees and such(just to keep the dole que down)lets have some sort of conscripted boot camp,i am sure that would help,my brother used to say to me when he came back from 3yrs Regular service that he went into the army a boy and came out a man,i honestly believe that today there is not a definite change period from boy to man,excepting of course the natural one,i hope you can get my meaning here,i really dont want to come over as argueing with you.
Ok Joseph Yossarian,if the main object of the excorcise was to make an efficient fighting force out of a conscripted army then i would agree with you,but that would not be the point of all this conscription,the days of bashing Gerry and the Zulus are well past,there is a need in society at this present time for disciplin and respect to be brought back,the schools cannot do this,it does not seem to be taught under these circumstances we live in now,so for me instead of having the kids in college doing useless degrees and such(just to keep the dole que down)lets have some sort of conscripted boot camp,i am sure that would help,my brother used to say to me when he came back from 3yrs Regular service that he went into the army a boy and came out a man,i honestly believe that today there is not a definite change period from boy to man,excepting of course the natural one,i hope you can get my meaning here,i really dont want to come over as argueing with you.
Posted by: Joseph Yossarian, Londinium on 5:14pm Thu 27 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Nostradamous[/bold] wrote:
Ok Joseph Yossarian,if the main object of the excorcise was to make an efficient fighting force out of a conscripted army then i would agree with you,but that would not be the point of all this conscription,the days of bashing Gerry and the Zulus are well past,there is a need in society at this present time for disciplin and respect to be brought back,the schools cannot do this,it does not seem to be taught under these circumstances we live in now,so for me instead of having the kids in college doing useless degrees and such(just to keep the dole que down)lets have some sort of conscripted boot camp,i am sure that would help,my brother used to say to me when he came back from 3yrs Regular service that he went into the army a boy and came out a man,i honestly believe that today there is not a definite change period from boy to man,excepting of course the natural one,i hope you can get my meaning here,i really dont want to come over as argueing with you.[/quote] Your comments make absolute sense to a point. No disagreeing with you about the societal points you've raised.
The crux being that the whole aim of an army is to provide an effecient fighting force. The military does absolutely not have the resources or the inclination to become some sort of after-school social engineering experiment. To make it do so would severely dilute it's effectiveness.
That said, [italic]Bad Lads Army[/italic] seemed to work a treat on many of its "inmates" so maybe the justice system (and not the military) would be a better way to implement a disciplinarian short-sharp-shock tactic.
The flipside (as the guardian might say) being "Right lets make all our jobs trained killers too" but that is another discussion!
Joseph Heller might call it a catch-22 situation.......
Nostradamous wrote:
Ok Joseph Yossarian,if the main object of the excorcise was to make an efficient fighting force out of a conscripted army then i would agree with you,but that would not be the point of all this conscription,the days of bashing Gerry and the Zulus are well past,there is a need in society at this present time for disciplin and respect to be brought back,the schools cannot do this,it does not seem to be taught under these circumstances we live in now,so for me instead of having the kids in college doing useless degrees and such(just to keep the dole que down)lets have some sort of conscripted boot camp,i am sure that would help,my brother used to say to me when he came back from 3yrs Regular service that he went into the army a boy and came out a man,i honestly believe that today there is not a definite change period from boy to man,excepting of course the natural one,i hope you can get my meaning here,i really dont want to come over as argueing with you.
Your comments make absolute sense to a point. No disagreeing with you about the societal points you've raised.
The crux being that the whole aim of an army is to provide an effecient fighting force. The military does absolutely not have the resources or the inclination to become some sort of after-school social engineering experiment. To make it do so would severely dilute it's effectiveness.
That said, Bad Lads Army seemed to work a treat on many of its "inmates" so maybe the justice system (and not the military) would be a better way to implement a disciplinarian short-sharp-shock tactic.
The flipside (as the guardian might say) being "Right lets make all our jobs trained killers too" but that is another discussion!
Joseph Heller might call it a catch-22 situation.......
Posted by: doberman, Olympus on 11:19am Fri 28 Mar 08
a lot of people have said what i would say, as to how it could be good, but unlikely.
another thing is that things seen on bad lads army are consented to. most people would not tolerate harsh discipline or even hard work, heck they'd probably sue the army, the country and even the queen!
another joseph heller fan i see, Joseph Yossarian! i so so loved catch-22!
a lot of people have said what i would say, as to how it could be good, but unlikely.
another thing is that things seen on bad lads army are consented to. most people would not tolerate harsh discipline or even hard work, heck they'd probably sue the army, the country and even the queen!
another joseph heller fan i see, Joseph Yossarian! i so so loved catch-22!
Posted by: simplysimon, burnley on 3:24pm Sat 5 Apr 08
Obviously, discipline and respect for Queen and Authority training is a thing of the past.
All People want out of life nowadays is enough money to go shopping.
Obviously, discipline and respect for Queen and Authority training is a thing of the past.
All People want out of life nowadays is enough money to go shopping.
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