Two recent murder cases have aroused great public comment about how defendants get bail.
One is that of Garry Weddell, a former police inspector awaiting trial on the charge of murder of the murder of his wife Sandra, who was then himself found dead, allegedly having killed his mother-in-law before taking his own life.
The second is that of Garry Newlove, from Warrington, who died two days after - as Chester Crown Court was told - he had been "kicked like a football" when he confronted a gang near his house.
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One of the gang, at the time that he committed the murder, had been on bail on other charges, breaking a condition that he did not go near Warrington.
Some have said that these two cases suggest that the law on granting bail should be changed, and made more difficult.
The issue is now on my desk. So what do I do?
The first thing is to remind myself, and everyone else, that someone charged with an offence - however heinous - is considered to be not guilty unless and until the opposite is proved, beyond reasonable doubt, at a trial.
Until they are convicted, they have a right to liberty.
This is not an absolute right. Public safety and the interests of justice mean that some people must be kept in prison awaiting trial.
At any one time about 8,000 of our 80,000 prison population are inside "on remand".
They will have been put there after a hearing where typically the prosecution have argued for remand in jail, the defence for bail.
The judge or magistrates then have to decide on the basis of some common-sense tests - for example will the defendant turn up in court, will they commit another offence, interfere with witnesses or obstruct the course of justice?
Conditions can be imposed, from tagging, curfews and area bans, to the taking of sureties.
The hard part for the judiciary is then testing the likely future conduct of the defendants on the available evidence.
Judges and magistrates do so with great care. Sadly, sometimes defendants break their bail conditions, on occasions with tragic results.
That is terrible for the victims and their families, and no words of comfort or explan-ation will expunge their loss and suffering.
There is already legislation, on granting bail in homicide and rape cases where the defendant already has a conviction for a similar crime.
I am now looking at whether a similar sort of provision could be made to cover murder charges where this is the first such offence.
I hope to make decisions fairly quickly on this.
But I am clear that the court must retain discretion to cover exceptional situations and consider all the circumstances of the case.
Take the case of another man charged with the murder - also of his wife.
Most people would say, on those facts, shouldn't he be remanded in jail?
But in this case the man was aged 100. His defence that his was a "mercy killing" of his wife whom he loved dearly and was in the very painful terminal stages of a dreadful illness was accepted by the jury.
He was convicted of manslaughter and given two years' probation.
Few would, I think, argue against giving this man bail whilst he awaited trial; and, as it turned out, he was found not guilty of the crime of which he was originally charged.
Markedly differing cases within the same very serious type of crime are just one of the daily challenges faced by courts, and which I have to take into account in deciding what if any changes to propose.
My guiding principle in this as in all my duties is the safety of the public.
My aim is that custody should be targeted as precisely as possible upon those cases where there is a risk of harm to the public.
I will not be slow to come forward with further changes to the law if they are needed to secure that aim.
Posted by: Nostradamous, blackburn on 12:04pm Fri 1 Feb 08
Until they are convicted, they have a right to liberty...
And so this should be,BUT and i do stress this BUT,if it is absoloutly clear that the crimanal did commit the crime(as in both these cases) under know curcumstances should they be shown any leneansy,and espec if the police are pleading for custudy then why not go with the police,give them some support there job is difficult enough to start with let alone fighting the goverment as well.
You Mr Straw and your like are duty bound to protect us citizens against all kinds of criminallity,please lets not be so black and white if it is obvious that the person in custudy has done the crime they need to be took out of society,two things could solve this 1)sack all the magistrates and bring in more hard liners,or2) just give the exsisting magistrates much more power,imo without doubt we need to get tough on crime,why,well because of the on coming recession there will be lots lots more of it..
Until they are convicted, they have a right to liberty...
And so this should be,BUT and i do stress this BUT,if it is absoloutly clear that the crimanal did commit the crime(as in both these cases) under know curcumstances should they be shown any leneansy,and espec if the police are pleading for custudy then why not go with the police,give them some support there job is difficult enough to start with let alone fighting the goverment as well.
You Mr Straw and your like are duty bound to protect us citizens against all kinds of criminallity,please lets not be so black and white if it is obvious that the person in custudy has done the crime they need to be took out of society,two things could solve this 1)sack all the magistrates and bring in more hard liners,or2) just give the exsisting magistrates much more power,imo without doubt we need to get tough on crime,why,well because of the on coming recession there will be lots lots more of it..
Posted by: Nostradamous, blackburn on 12:04pm Fri 1 Feb 08
Until they are convicted, they have a right to liberty...
And so this should be,BUT and i do stress this BUT,if it is absoloutly clear that the crimanal did commit the crime(as in both these cases) under know curcumstances should they be shown any leneansy,and espec if the police are pleading for custudy then why not go with the police,give them some support there job is difficult enough to start with let alone fighting the goverment as well.
You Mr Straw and your like are duty bound to protect us citizens against all kinds of criminallity,please lets not be so black and white if it is obvious that the person in custudy has done the crime they need to be took out of society,two things could solve this 1)sack all the magistrates and bring in more hard liners,or2) just give the exsisting magistrates much more power,imo without doubt we need to get tough on crime,why,well because of the on coming recession there will be lots lots more of it..
Until they are convicted, they have a right to liberty...
And so this should be,BUT and i do stress this BUT,if it is absoloutly clear that the crimanal did commit the crime(as in both these cases) under know curcumstances should they be shown any leneansy,and espec if the police are pleading for custudy then why not go with the police,give them some support there job is difficult enough to start with let alone fighting the goverment as well.
You Mr Straw and your like are duty bound to protect us citizens against all kinds of criminallity,please lets not be so black and white if it is obvious that the person in custudy has done the crime they need to be took out of society,two things could solve this 1)sack all the magistrates and bring in more hard liners,or2) just give the exsisting magistrates much more power,imo without doubt we need to get tough on crime,why,well because of the on coming recession there will be lots lots more of it..
Posted by: Ian the Beancounter, Darwen on 4:43pm Fri 1 Feb 08
I agree with Nostradamus that in cases where it is clear that they have committed the crime, like the Newlove case, there should be absolutely no question of bail, although I accept Mr Straw's argument that the 100 year old gentleman was no threat to society and it would have been inappropriate. This brings us to just one conclusion - that the bail conditions can only be set by the judge or magistrates, and here is where the problem appears to lie! All too often we hear of cases were the defendant "showed remorse" and are therefore dealt with with more leniency. It is up to the judge to recognise whether the "remorse" is real. I would show remorse if I thought it would keep me out of jail! But the overriding impression given in such cases is that the judge is out of touch and perhaps even believes that the "remorse" is real. So many judges live in a different world to the people they often see before them and I truly believe that the judges just cannot accept that people will lie, cheat, cry - anything - to be set free. It just isn't done in their world!.
Yes, the judges need to make the decision on bail, but they need to wake up to the real world and realise that if a criminal says he will turn up on the appointed date, at the appointed hour for his trial, he is probably lying!
I agree with Nostradamus that in cases where it is clear that they have committed the crime, like the Newlove case, there should be absolutely no question of bail, although I accept Mr Straw's argument that the 100 year old gentleman was no threat to society and it would have been inappropriate. This brings us to just one conclusion - that the bail conditions can only be set by the judge or magistrates, and here is where the problem appears to lie! All too often we hear of cases were the defendant "showed remorse" and are therefore dealt with with more leniency. It is up to the judge to recognise whether the "remorse" is real. I would show remorse if I thought it would keep me out of jail! But the overriding impression given in such cases is that the judge is out of touch and perhaps even believes that the "remorse" is real. So many judges live in a different world to the people they often see before them and I truly believe that the judges just cannot accept that people will lie, cheat, cry - anything - to be set free. It just isn't done in their world!.
Yes, the judges need to make the decision on bail, but they need to wake up to the real world and realise that if a criminal says he will turn up on the appointed date, at the appointed hour for his trial, he is probably lying!
Posted by: N ostradmous, blackburn on 1:51pm Sat 2 Feb 08
My feelings entirely ITBC,perhaps Judges with much more street cred,not unlike dare i say , the type of local DA in America we must stop ,this foolishness now tbh it stinks of the old school tie world and all that,but i dont want to even go down that route in fact i do know somene who did eventually make it up to being a judge,this is true,we would think that he would use his own thoughts and feelings about certain judgements in fact he cant,therefore imo anyone could be trained to be a Judge because of the proceedures they are trained to follow,you dont have to be a wise old ex barrister to do that now do you,but it does make jobs for the boys..<laugh>
My feelings entirely ITBC,perhaps Judges with much more street cred,not unlike dare i say , the type of local DA in America we must stop ,this foolishness now tbh it stinks of the old school tie world and all that,but i dont want to even go down that route in fact i do know somene who did eventually make it up to being a judge,this is true,we would think that he would use his own thoughts and feelings about certain judgements in fact he cant,therefore imo anyone could be trained to be a Judge because of the proceedures they are trained to follow,you dont have to be a wise old ex barrister to do that now do you,but it does make jobs for the boys..<laugh>
You should go to good old jack straw he will have you aressted based on allegations cos he is the min for justice so watch out lads jacks about,except if you were his son one of many drug dealers in the blackburn area but we wont mention that eh!! from the past known by many a good pothead.
You should go to good old jack straw he will have you aressted based on allegations cos he is the min for justice so watch out lads jacks about,except if you were his son one of many drug dealers in the blackburn area but we wont mention that eh!! from the past known by many a good pothead.
When jack says changes, what he means is this, even if you are innocent you wil be shot so sod off jack and learn some common sense as you are lacking obviously,you have a short memory,within the realms of your own family
When jack says changes, what he means is this, even if you are innocent you wil be shot so sod off jack and learn some common sense as you are lacking obviously,you have a short memory,within the realms of your own family
I was before a judge in preston county court in respects of seeing my children, the mother who had children before i met her, forgot to tell me that her previous children were removed from her custody,yet this was not mentioned in court as i was not given the chance to say anything i was told by the arsehole to shut up, thats the judges of the county courts for you, fair my backside the man hides behind the fact that he is a judge, and as for caff-cass, i believe truly they were all abused as children as they obviously are all women and bias towards good fathers.
I was before a judge in preston county court in respects of seeing my children, the mother who had children before i met her, forgot to tell me that her previous children were removed from her custody,yet this was not mentioned in court as i was not given the chance to say anything i was told by the arsehole to shut up, thats the judges of the county courts for you, fair my backside the man hides behind the fact that he is a judge, and as for caff-cass, i believe truly they were all abused as children as they obviously are all women and bias towards good fathers.
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