Blackburn Rovers tackling £54.5m debt

Lancashire Telegraph: Mrs Desai, head of owners the Venky’s Mrs Desai, head of owners the Venky’s

BLACKBURN Rovers are £54.5m in debt after posting a pre-tax loss of £36.5m for last season.

Managing director Derek Shaw insisted the club was working hard to put its ‘house in order’ after a disastrous first year in the Championship.

Owners Venky’s state in Rovers’ latest annual accounts that they are willing to provide additional funds should the club’s overdraft with the State Bank of India not be renewed – and should the club fail to win promotion.

But the accounts, for the year ending June 30, 2013 and which cover the 2012-13 season, reveal:

  • Rovers posted a pre-tax loss of £36.5m after losing £11.7m on player trading – more than the £30m predicted by supporters’ group The Rovers Trust last month. The previous year – the club’s last in the Premier League – Rovers posted a pre-tax profit of £4.3m after making £14.1m profit on player trading;
  • Net debt has shot up from £24.5m to £54.5m – £36.1m of which is owed to Venky’s;
  • Turnover was down £27.3m from £54.2m to £26.9m after a drop of £23.2m in TV money;
  • Wages were down from £50m to £36m. However the wage-to-turnover ratio rose from 92.2 per cent to 136.1 per cent;
  • The club lost £1.1m in ticket sales and £3m in commercial income as average attendance fell 33.5 per cent from 22,551 to 14,997.

Mr Shaw said the club faced a ‘challenging task’ of meeting the new Financial Fair Play regulations which come into play next season.

Blackburn MP Jack Straw said: “These figures are what happens when a highly geared club drops into the Championship. Professional football is a ruthless business, but a wages to business ratio on that scale for a club like Rovers is unsustainable.”

Rovers Trust co-chairman Wayne Wild said: “We predicted losses of around that magnitude.

“It is our job to highlight these issues and, at the time, we got a bit of criticism for it. On the flipside, this shows the owners are putting their own money in to try to win promotion.”

Blackburn Rovers Fans’ Forum secretary John Wareing said: “There have been some bad decisions over the past couple of years and the club is paying for that.”

FFP rules state that Championship clubs can make a maximum loss of £8m for the 2013-14 season. Anything higher will result in a transfer embargo which would come into force on January 1, 2015.

Clubs failing to comply with FFP will not escape punishment if they are promoted to the Premier League this season.

They will be required to pay a Fair Play Tax, which scales from one per cent on the first £100,000 overspent to 100 per cent on anything above £10m.

Rovers paid off high earners such as Danny Murphy and Nuno Gomes in summer. The full costs associated with the high-profile duo’s departures are accrued in the latest accounts.

Mr Shaw added: “We still have some big wage earners and are working to put our house in order.”

The accounts reveal the club is financed through a bank overdraft facility, forward finance arrangements and shareholder loans.

The £36.1m owed to Venky’s is interest free, with no fixed date for repayment. The £13.7m owed to the State Bank of India must be paid in one year.

The overdraft – which the accounts state is not secured over any of the club’s assets – expired on September 30.

But the bank has not withdrawn the overdraft, states the accounts, and the Rovers directors believe ‘the facility will be renewed on acceptable terms and conditions’.

Comments (73)

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9:38am Mon 4 Nov 13

TurfMoorTom says...

So in that year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m)

With income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means £22.9m has gone on running costs and otherwise been splashed up the wall. Trully shocking to see whats happening and no one sees fit to investigate.
So in that year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m) With income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means £22.9m has gone on running costs and otherwise been splashed up the wall. Trully shocking to see whats happening and no one sees fit to investigate. TurfMoorTom

9:42am Mon 4 Nov 13

TurfMoorTom says...

And note this year you've brought in Evans £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and a £22.9m albatros hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.
And note this year you've brought in Evans £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and a £22.9m albatros hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. TurfMoorTom

9:49am Mon 4 Nov 13

BRFC75 says...

There is still a number of Big earners ,not putting in a shift , we all know who they are , also too many players conveniently nearly permanently injured.

Wonder how many of our players that keep putting into the papers about their loyalty and support would volunteer to take a drop to keep the ship afloat , none I would guess.
Singh and Hendry both on. 400,000 pounds a year , no body knows what they do for their money anymore.

Think GB deserves the money he gets irrespective of anything that happens on the pitch , the guy is genuinely trying his best to keep the sinking ship afloat.

The massive debt means , make changes now or the trustees will make changes for you , it's not a question of premier league now it's a question of survival.
There is still a number of Big earners ,not putting in a shift , we all know who they are , also too many players conveniently nearly permanently injured. Wonder how many of our players that keep putting into the papers about their loyalty and support would volunteer to take a drop to keep the ship afloat , none I would guess. Singh and Hendry both on. 400,000 pounds a year , no body knows what they do for their money anymore. Think GB deserves the money he gets irrespective of anything that happens on the pitch , the guy is genuinely trying his best to keep the sinking ship afloat. The massive debt means , make changes now or the trustees will make changes for you , it's not a question of premier league now it's a question of survival. BRFC75

10:03am Mon 4 Nov 13

vicn1956 says...

Remember-
"Trust us we will get it right."
Wait for the comments from the venky lovers.
Remember- "Trust us we will get it right." Wait for the comments from the venky lovers. vicn1956

10:05am Mon 4 Nov 13

lcjfm03 says...

Sacking Sam Allardyce must go down as one the most crazy decisions of all time. Would be pulling in the mega TV money to this day if they hadn't taking such a stupid rash decision. Sorry, I know all been said many times beforehand!
Sacking Sam Allardyce must go down as one the most crazy decisions of all time. Would be pulling in the mega TV money to this day if they hadn't taking such a stupid rash decision. Sorry, I know all been said many times beforehand! lcjfm03

10:11am Mon 4 Nov 13

we.love.u.venkys says...

What an utter shambles of a football club. A disgrace from top to bottom.

League One awaits.
What an utter shambles of a football club. A disgrace from top to bottom. League One awaits. we.love.u.venkys

10:18am Mon 4 Nov 13

TurfMoorTom says...

I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so:

Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking.

That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme.

So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m.

Do you realise your sustainable income is:
Championship TV £3m
Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m
Sponsorships say £3m

Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????)

Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.

With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well.

Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.
I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so: Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking. That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme. So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m. Do you realise your sustainable income is: Championship TV £3m Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m Sponsorships say £3m Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????) Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well. Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate. TurfMoorTom

10:26am Mon 4 Nov 13

Dukes says...

Nobody have faith in venkys, there don't know what their doing.
Nobody have faith in venkys, there don't know what their doing. Dukes

10:57am Mon 4 Nov 13

TurfMoorTom says...

Adding the detail reported in this article, to summarise:

£26.9m Income
(£36.3m) Wages
(£11.7m) Player trading - not sure how they get here from my £4.2m
(£15.4m) 'Running costs'!!
========
(£36.5m) Your reported pre-tax loss

Note any single one of your current outgoings is larger than your sustainable income of ~£10m!!!!!! How do people like Derek Shaw get their jobs? I'm sure I could do better.
Adding the detail reported in this article, to summarise: £26.9m Income (£36.3m) Wages (£11.7m) Player trading - not sure how they get here from my £4.2m (£15.4m) 'Running costs'!! ======== (£36.5m) Your reported pre-tax loss Note any single one of your current outgoings is larger than your sustainable income of ~£10m!!!!!! How do people like Derek Shaw get their jobs? I'm sure I could do better. TurfMoorTom

11:02am Mon 4 Nov 13

stick to football says...

Well this spells trouble big style.

I would not want to be a supplier to BRFC at any cost. Remember players first when the inevitable happens.

Need to trim the playing staff and one fears for the Academy and the staff because I am not certain how many of the missing thousands would return to Ewood even if they managed promotion - that too would be a miracle

I would really love to know Venkys thoughts on their reign at Ewood if it want tragic it would be funny. Wonder if they have another £36 million to waste ?
Well this spells trouble big style. I would not want to be a supplier to BRFC at any cost. Remember players first when the inevitable happens. Need to trim the playing staff and one fears for the Academy and the staff because I am not certain how many of the missing thousands would return to Ewood even if they managed promotion - that too would be a miracle I would really love to know Venkys thoughts on their reign at Ewood if it want tragic it would be funny. Wonder if they have another £36 million to waste ? stick to football

11:18am Mon 4 Nov 13

Mayoralbentacuspocketus says...

SteppBladder wrote:
Lancs -pensioner wrote:
I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...
Not the real LP. Get a life fake LP
Real LP or not, it's just a user name, are you really stepp bladder?
[quote][p][bold]SteppBladder[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs -pensioner[/bold] wrote: I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...[/p][/quote]Not the real LP. Get a life fake LP[/p][/quote]Real LP or not, it's just a user name, are you really stepp bladder? Mayoralbentacuspocketus

11:20am Mon 4 Nov 13

Champagne plus charlie says...

Dukes wrote:
Nobody have faith in venkys, there don't know what their doing.
I have faith in Venkys - It appears they do know exactly what they are doing.

Operation wreck Rovers is approaching it's peak.
[quote][p][bold]Dukes[/bold] wrote: Nobody have faith in venkys, there don't know what their doing.[/p][/quote]I have faith in Venkys - It appears they do know exactly what they are doing. Operation wreck Rovers is approaching it's peak. Champagne plus charlie

11:23am Mon 4 Nov 13

jack01 says...

The important points of this are:

a) the overdraft is not secured against any of the club's assets

b) the vast majority of the debt is owed to Venkys, interest free, with no date for repayment

Once again Venkys are insisting that they are committed, and have plans in place for funding were the overdraft not to be renewed or were the club not to get promoted.

Whilst these figures make for grim reading, they are not unexpected. This is inevitable for any club that spends 10 years in the top flight and then is relegated. Venkys had the bottle to try and bankroll promotion last season. Ok, it turned into a disaster, but would the Walker trust have done that? I don't think we'd have seen a penny from them.

We have seen a sensible reduction in wages by getting rid of the likes of Gomes, Murphy, Pedersen and Givet in the summer. Get rid of Robinson, Etuhu, Best and Orr soon and that will be another big reduction.

People can moan about Venkys all they like, but do they really think we'd have the likes of Jordan Rhodes at the club without their money?
The important points of this are: a) the overdraft is not secured against any of the club's assets b) the vast majority of the debt is owed to Venkys, interest free, with no date for repayment Once again Venkys are insisting that they are committed, and have plans in place for funding were the overdraft not to be renewed or were the club not to get promoted. Whilst these figures make for grim reading, they are not unexpected. This is inevitable for any club that spends 10 years in the top flight and then is relegated. Venkys had the bottle to try and bankroll promotion last season. Ok, it turned into a disaster, but would the Walker trust have done that? I don't think we'd have seen a penny from them. We have seen a sensible reduction in wages by getting rid of the likes of Gomes, Murphy, Pedersen and Givet in the summer. Get rid of Robinson, Etuhu, Best and Orr soon and that will be another big reduction. People can moan about Venkys all they like, but do they really think we'd have the likes of Jordan Rhodes at the club without their money? jack01

11:40am Mon 4 Nov 13

jack01 says...

TurfMoorTom wrote:
I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so:

Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking.

That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme.

So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m.

Do you realise your sustainable income is:
Championship TV £3m
Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m
Sponsorships say £3m

Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????)

Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.

With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well.

Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.
Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here.

You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners?

You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is.

The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further.

If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club.

So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.
[quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so: Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking. That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme. So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m. Do you realise your sustainable income is: Championship TV £3m Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m Sponsorships say £3m Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????) Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well. Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.[/p][/quote]Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here. You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners? You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is. The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further. If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club. So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future. jack01

11:49am Mon 4 Nov 13

we.love.u.venkys says...

Lancs - pensioner wrote:
Lancs -pensioner wrote:
I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...
Morning Fake, how's your sister you thick dingle?
Love how the real LP has got this fake one panicking again.

Lancs - pensioner = FAKE, incest obsessed ignoramus.

Lancs -pensioner = Genuine, sensible Blackburn Rovers supporter.

Ban the fake Lancs - pensioner!
[quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs -pensioner[/bold] wrote: I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...[/p][/quote]Morning Fake, how's your sister you thick dingle?[/p][/quote]Love how the real LP has got this fake one panicking again. Lancs - pensioner = FAKE, incest obsessed ignoramus. Lancs -pensioner = Genuine, sensible Blackburn Rovers supporter. Ban the fake Lancs - pensioner! we.love.u.venkys

11:52am Mon 4 Nov 13

leitchy says...

Like it or not without Venks we are in trouble...!

You may argue they put us there but now they need to stay there and fund a sinking ship!!

If they do then full credit...not many would...from a business point of view they should just leave the mess they've created! If they don't and they stay funding it then full credit to them!!
Like it or not without Venks we are in trouble...! You may argue they put us there but now they need to stay there and fund a sinking ship!! If they do then full credit...not many would...from a business point of view they should just leave the mess they've created! If they don't and they stay funding it then full credit to them!! leitchy

11:53am Mon 4 Nov 13

owd nick says...

BRFC75 wrote:
There is still a number of Big earners ,not putting in a shift , we all know who they are , also too many players conveniently nearly permanently injured.

Wonder how many of our players that keep putting into the papers about their loyalty and support would volunteer to take a drop to keep the ship afloat , none I would guess.
Singh and Hendry both on. 400,000 pounds a year , no body knows what they do for their money anymore.

Think GB deserves the money he gets irrespective of anything that happens on the pitch , the guy is genuinely trying his best to keep the sinking ship afloat.

The massive debt means , make changes now or the trustees will make changes for you , it's not a question of premier league now it's a question of survival.
Who are the trustees?
[quote][p][bold]BRFC75[/bold] wrote: There is still a number of Big earners ,not putting in a shift , we all know who they are , also too many players conveniently nearly permanently injured. Wonder how many of our players that keep putting into the papers about their loyalty and support would volunteer to take a drop to keep the ship afloat , none I would guess. Singh and Hendry both on. 400,000 pounds a year , no body knows what they do for their money anymore. Think GB deserves the money he gets irrespective of anything that happens on the pitch , the guy is genuinely trying his best to keep the sinking ship afloat. The massive debt means , make changes now or the trustees will make changes for you , it's not a question of premier league now it's a question of survival.[/p][/quote]Who are the trustees? owd nick

12:09pm Mon 4 Nov 13

SteppBladder says...

Mayoralbentacuspocke
tus
wrote:
SteppBladder wrote:
Lancs -pensioner wrote:
I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...
Not the real LP. Get a life fake LP
Real LP or not, it's just a user name, are you really stepp bladder?
If it was just a username it would be no problem. If it is someone trying to misrepresent the views and opinions of a longer-term, Rovers supporting poster, then it is a problem.

And yes, I am really SteppBladder.
[quote][p][bold]Mayoralbentacuspocke tus[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]SteppBladder[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs -pensioner[/bold] wrote: I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...[/p][/quote]Not the real LP. Get a life fake LP[/p][/quote]Real LP or not, it's just a user name, are you really stepp bladder?[/p][/quote]If it was just a username it would be no problem. If it is someone trying to misrepresent the views and opinions of a longer-term, Rovers supporting poster, then it is a problem. And yes, I am really SteppBladder. SteppBladder

12:10pm Mon 4 Nov 13

We'll win the next one says...

Trustees ? Wrong owners mate.
Trustees ? Wrong owners mate. We'll win the next one

12:16pm Mon 4 Nov 13

owd nick says...

jack01 wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so:

Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking.

That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme.

So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m.

Do you realise your sustainable income is:
Championship TV £3m
Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m
Sponsorships say £3m

Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????)

Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.

With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well.

Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.
Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here.

You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners?

You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is.

The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further.

If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club.

So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.
Excellent post Jack01, saves me the effort.

Ok the figures aren't good but in all honesty who expected us to be turning a profit after the debacle of the last two seasons? I certainly didn't, relegation was bad but last seasons stupidity broke all possible barriers.

Venky's are key now, they have already written off £25 million and the bulk of the current debt is owed to them or their bank in the form of an overdraft.

There don't appear to be anymore major creditors, and the simple fact most are forgetting is that Venky's are billionaires, this debt is pocket money to them, and trust them or not it can't be argued that they are scared of putting their hands in their wallets when its needed.

And before the knobheads start screaming "Parachute Payments" the simple fact of life is that when Venky's took us over any revenue coming into the club became theirs, as did responsibility for any debts.

It's how the books stand at the end of this season that matters, not last season, or the season before, the way the club is being restructured this season with football people running it at last suggests our esteemed owners have learned some extremely painful financial and cultural lessons.

Hopefully it's not too late and they will find a way out of this mess before the end of the season.
[quote][p][bold]jack01[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so: Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking. That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme. So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m. Do you realise your sustainable income is: Championship TV £3m Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m Sponsorships say £3m Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????) Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well. Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.[/p][/quote]Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here. You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners? You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is. The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further. If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club. So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.[/p][/quote]Excellent post Jack01, saves me the effort. Ok the figures aren't good but in all honesty who expected us to be turning a profit after the debacle of the last two seasons? I certainly didn't, relegation was bad but last seasons stupidity broke all possible barriers. Venky's are key now, they have already written off £25 million and the bulk of the current debt is owed to them or their bank in the form of an overdraft. There don't appear to be anymore major creditors, and the simple fact most are forgetting is that Venky's are billionaires, this debt is pocket money to them, and trust them or not it can't be argued that they are scared of putting their hands in their wallets when its needed. And before the knobheads start screaming "Parachute Payments" the simple fact of life is that when Venky's took us over any revenue coming into the club became theirs, as did responsibility for any debts. It's how the books stand at the end of this season that matters, not last season, or the season before, the way the club is being restructured this season with football people running it at last suggests our esteemed owners have learned some extremely painful financial and cultural lessons. Hopefully it's not too late and they will find a way out of this mess before the end of the season. owd nick

12:16pm Mon 4 Nov 13

TurfMoorTom says...

Fair point in response and I don't argue Burnley are in fantastic shape, though are par for the course. You simply must see that you need to get wages down to around £8m (from a now estimated £25-30m) and run the rest of the club for~£2m (at present £15.4m). Any player trading to add on top and your Indian benefactors can throw in up to £5m as they see fit for a push now and again. That is the only sustainable way.
Fair point in response and I don't argue Burnley are in fantastic shape, though are par for the course. You simply must see that you need to get wages down to around £8m (from a now estimated £25-30m) and run the rest of the club for~£2m (at present £15.4m). Any player trading to add on top and your Indian benefactors can throw in up to £5m as they see fit for a push now and again. That is the only sustainable way. TurfMoorTom

12:33pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Champagne plus charlie says...

Put into a nutshell for the hard of thinking - Blackburn Rovers' debt is running at an unsustainable rate. It is OK all the simpletons posting about the debt being just to Venkys and how it is similar to the likes of Chelsea under Abramovich etc are missing one salient point:

BLACKBURN ARE NOT PLAYING IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE ANY MORE, THEY ARE IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP, AND ARE GOING TO BE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE AND UNABLE TO BUY PLAYERS AFTER JANUARY 2014.

Also people keep banging on about the parachute payments - This debt INCLUDES the parachute payments.

Oh and it looks like you have absolutely no option but to cash in on Jordan Rhodes in January.

Shame
Put into a nutshell for the hard of thinking - Blackburn Rovers' debt is running at an unsustainable rate. It is OK all the simpletons posting about the debt being just to Venkys and how it is similar to the likes of Chelsea under Abramovich etc are missing one salient point: BLACKBURN ARE NOT PLAYING IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE ANY MORE, THEY ARE IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP, AND ARE GOING TO BE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE AND UNABLE TO BUY PLAYERS AFTER JANUARY 2014. Also people keep banging on about the parachute payments - This debt INCLUDES the parachute payments. Oh and it looks like you have absolutely no option but to cash in on Jordan Rhodes in January. Shame Champagne plus charlie

12:34pm Mon 4 Nov 13

olister2k says...

It is proven - if you don't spend or invest, you will not reach the Premier League. In our attempt to reach promotion, we gave the money to the wrong manager and spent the wrong money on the wrong players culminating in the additional losses due to obscene payouts, agents fees and the like.

Venkys have made such a mess of Rovers that they are reigning back the cash and cutting their cloth - as any business would.

With real world income well under £15m a year, and diminishing parachute payments, our chance of reaching the PL goes slimmer.

There was an opinion above that said 'would the Walker trust have invested like Venkys did'? Well all I see is Venkys getting their credit card out, not really paying any debts down. They have borrowed on verdrafts and future tickets sales etc - this IS NOT INVESTMENT and I would have hoped Walker trust and John Williams would have been far more prudent and responsible with the spending... we would still have Alardyce, still be in the PL... and the story goes on.

Now we know the true financial mess the club is in, I would argue all talk of promotion be banned (let the owners be honest with the fans), consolidate a championship position, get the finances and Academy in order and build for the future with a 5 year plan.
It is proven - if you don't spend or invest, you will not reach the Premier League. In our attempt to reach promotion, we gave the money to the wrong manager and spent the wrong money on the wrong players culminating in the additional losses due to obscene payouts, agents fees and the like. Venkys have made such a mess of Rovers that they are reigning back the cash and cutting their cloth - as any business would. With real world income well under £15m a year, and diminishing parachute payments, our chance of reaching the PL goes slimmer. There was an opinion above that said 'would the Walker trust have invested like Venkys did'? Well all I see is Venkys getting their credit card out, not really paying any debts down. They have borrowed on verdrafts and future tickets sales etc - this IS NOT INVESTMENT and I would have hoped Walker trust and John Williams would have been far more prudent and responsible with the spending... we would still have Alardyce, still be in the PL... and the story goes on. Now we know the true financial mess the club is in, I would argue all talk of promotion be banned (let the owners be honest with the fans), consolidate a championship position, get the finances and Academy in order and build for the future with a 5 year plan. olister2k

12:39pm Mon 4 Nov 13

TurfMoorTom says...

Of note at £8m, assuming a 25 man squad you're looking at around £5k/week which seems fair for a hungry championship player looking to prove themselves. Do you really think Best is worth 6 or 7 of those? Or Etuhu?
Of note at £8m, assuming a 25 man squad you're looking at around £5k/week which seems fair for a hungry championship player looking to prove themselves. Do you really think Best is worth 6 or 7 of those? Or Etuhu? TurfMoorTom

12:48pm Mon 4 Nov 13

we.love.u.venkys says...

Has Rhodes gone yet?
Has Rhodes gone yet? we.love.u.venkys

1:00pm Mon 4 Nov 13

J.C - Rishton says...

owd nick wrote:
jack01 wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so:

Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking.

That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme.

So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m.

Do you realise your sustainable income is:
Championship TV £3m
Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m
Sponsorships say £3m

Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????)

Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.

With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well.

Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.
Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here.

You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners?

You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is.

The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further.

If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club.

So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.
Excellent post Jack01, saves me the effort.

Ok the figures aren't good but in all honesty who expected us to be turning a profit after the debacle of the last two seasons? I certainly didn't, relegation was bad but last seasons stupidity broke all possible barriers.

Venky's are key now, they have already written off £25 million and the bulk of the current debt is owed to them or their bank in the form of an overdraft.

There don't appear to be anymore major creditors, and the simple fact most are forgetting is that Venky's are billionaires, this debt is pocket money to them, and trust them or not it can't be argued that they are scared of putting their hands in their wallets when its needed.

And before the knobheads start screaming "Parachute Payments" the simple fact of life is that when Venky's took us over any revenue coming into the club became theirs, as did responsibility for any debts.

It's how the books stand at the end of this season that matters, not last season, or the season before, the way the club is being restructured this season with football people running it at last suggests our esteemed owners have learned some extremely painful financial and cultural lessons.

Hopefully it's not too late and they will find a way out of this mess before the end of the season.
Hi, Owd Nick and Jacko - I'm sorry but I don't agree on most of the principak points you make -

1 - Jacko says that "the debt is too Venkys" - so what ?? - its still a debt that can be called in at any time. If Venkys cared so much about Rovers why don't they "gift" the club that money then there would be no debt at all - think about it, if they arnt going to claim reypayment of it then why don't they just write off all the debt ?
2 - Venkys could give the club money at the moment - there is nothing to stop them. FFP has not kicked in yet so if they are so great (as you two always seem to infer) then why don't they do it - they do it at Man City, AV, QPR, Watford etc etc ???
3- Also, you talk about "written guarantees" to, ineffect underwrite the debt - this is a corporate LEGAL REQUIREMENT in the UK for any company with a parent company when the subsiduary is trading insolvently - it is meaningless and is totally unenforcable under UK law (and everybody except 2 or 3 on here knows that Venkys are the biggest liars ever put on this earth).
4 - You say that Venkys are "billionaires" and this money is "nothing to them" - whilst combined in assets they (on paper) may be billionaires, in their last published accounts Venkys India only made just over £100 million profit - almost 50% of Rovers losses - hardly chicken feed, no matter how rich you are and also bear in mind that Venkys India has other (non Venky family members as shareholders) people who take a slice of that £100 million.
5- Word from India recently (about 8-10 weeks ago) was that Venkerash on his own had made that guarantee to the bank NOT the Venkys as a family - if that is true then that is another worrying development but since this disgusting family never deems to "comunicate" with us scum (its customers)then it is very difficult to find out where the club is in reality but to blandly brush it off as "well we knew things were financially bad so its all old news" is really underestimating to extent of this financial crisis - because that is what it is, a HUGE FINANCIAL HOLE that the club is sinking in more and more, day by day and if you think that getting players like Orr and Best off the books is going to solve it then you simply have no comprehension of the SIZE of the mess we are in.

Lastly, do you really put your faith in the Venkys and Derek Shaw to have the financial and football nous to get the club out of this mess because I certainly don't !!
[quote][p][bold]owd nick[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jack01[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so: Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking. That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme. So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m. Do you realise your sustainable income is: Championship TV £3m Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m Sponsorships say £3m Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????) Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well. Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.[/p][/quote]Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here. You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners? You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is. The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further. If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club. So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.[/p][/quote]Excellent post Jack01, saves me the effort. Ok the figures aren't good but in all honesty who expected us to be turning a profit after the debacle of the last two seasons? I certainly didn't, relegation was bad but last seasons stupidity broke all possible barriers. Venky's are key now, they have already written off £25 million and the bulk of the current debt is owed to them or their bank in the form of an overdraft. There don't appear to be anymore major creditors, and the simple fact most are forgetting is that Venky's are billionaires, this debt is pocket money to them, and trust them or not it can't be argued that they are scared of putting their hands in their wallets when its needed. And before the knobheads start screaming "Parachute Payments" the simple fact of life is that when Venky's took us over any revenue coming into the club became theirs, as did responsibility for any debts. It's how the books stand at the end of this season that matters, not last season, or the season before, the way the club is being restructured this season with football people running it at last suggests our esteemed owners have learned some extremely painful financial and cultural lessons. Hopefully it's not too late and they will find a way out of this mess before the end of the season.[/p][/quote]Hi, Owd Nick and Jacko - I'm sorry but I don't agree on most of the principak points you make - 1 - Jacko says that "the debt is too Venkys" - so what ?? - its still a debt that can be called in at any time. If Venkys cared so much about Rovers why don't they "gift" the club that money then there would be no debt at all - think about it, if they arnt going to claim reypayment of it then why don't they just write off all the debt ? 2 - Venkys could give the club money at the moment - there is nothing to stop them. FFP has not kicked in yet so if they are so great (as you two always seem to infer) then why don't they do it - they do it at Man City, AV, QPR, Watford etc etc ??? 3- Also, you talk about "written guarantees" to, ineffect underwrite the debt - this is a corporate LEGAL REQUIREMENT in the UK for any company with a parent company when the subsiduary is trading insolvently - it is meaningless and is totally unenforcable under UK law (and everybody except 2 or 3 on here knows that Venkys are the biggest liars ever put on this earth). 4 - You say that Venkys are "billionaires" and this money is "nothing to them" - whilst combined in assets they (on paper) may be billionaires, in their last published accounts Venkys India only made just over £100 million profit - almost 50% of Rovers losses - hardly chicken feed, no matter how rich you are and also bear in mind that Venkys India has other (non Venky family members as shareholders) people who take a slice of that £100 million. 5- Word from India recently (about 8-10 weeks ago) was that Venkerash on his own had made that guarantee to the bank NOT the Venkys as a family - if that is true then that is another worrying development but since this disgusting family never deems to "comunicate" with us scum (its customers)then it is very difficult to find out where the club is in reality but to blandly brush it off as "well we knew things were financially bad so its all old news" is really underestimating to extent of this financial crisis - because that is what it is, a HUGE FINANCIAL HOLE that the club is sinking in more and more, day by day and if you think that getting players like Orr and Best off the books is going to solve it then you simply have no comprehension of the SIZE of the mess we are in. Lastly, do you really put your faith in the Venkys and Derek Shaw to have the financial and football nous to get the club out of this mess because I certainly don't !! J.C - Rishton

1:02pm Mon 4 Nov 13

TurfMoorTom says...

Looking at your squad objectively you need to get rid of the £35k earners (Best, Robinson, Etuhu, Dann & possibly DJ Campbell?) asap and at the same time reduce squad numbers from an over-inflated 31 to a ~26. Even though he's on high wages, keeping Rhodes for now has to be the way.

That would net you ~£8m (assuming a free transfer replacement for Dann could be found) and reduce the wage bill by around £8m/year bringing your wages to ~£17m. With 2 years of £8m parachute payments and some money injected from India you could hold on to Rhodes until he decides to move on though would need to sell should you not get promoted in the 2yr time frame.

Beyond the above, as I've said a few times now, the £15.4m 'running costs' really need to be attacked more than anything else and I personally wouldn't have a man that looks like a frog that couldn't handle the same task at Preston trying to do the job.
Looking at your squad objectively you need to get rid of the £35k earners (Best, Robinson, Etuhu, Dann & possibly DJ Campbell?) asap and at the same time reduce squad numbers from an over-inflated 31 to a ~26. Even though he's on high wages, keeping Rhodes for now has to be the way. That would net you ~£8m (assuming a free transfer replacement for Dann could be found) and reduce the wage bill by around £8m/year bringing your wages to ~£17m. With 2 years of £8m parachute payments and some money injected from India you could hold on to Rhodes until he decides to move on though would need to sell should you not get promoted in the 2yr time frame. Beyond the above, as I've said a few times now, the £15.4m 'running costs' really need to be attacked more than anything else and I personally wouldn't have a man that looks like a frog that couldn't handle the same task at Preston trying to do the job. TurfMoorTom

1:04pm Mon 4 Nov 13

noddy57 says...

The writing is on the wall, but it was the minute they sacked Allardyce,
The writing is on the wall, but it was the minute they sacked Allardyce, noddy57

1:10pm Mon 4 Nov 13

You're not mugging me off that easily says...

jack01 wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so:

Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking.

That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme.

So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m.

Do you realise your sustainable income is:
Championship TV £3m
Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m
Sponsorships say £3m

Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????)

Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.

With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well.

Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.
Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here.

You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners?

You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is.

The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further.

If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club.

So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.
Deluded.
And sorry to have to point this out to you but the moon ISN'T made of cheese.
[quote][p][bold]jack01[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so: Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking. That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme. So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m. Do you realise your sustainable income is: Championship TV £3m Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m Sponsorships say £3m Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????) Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well. Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.[/p][/quote]Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here. You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners? You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is. The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further. If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club. So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.[/p][/quote]Deluded. And sorry to have to point this out to you but the moon ISN'T made of cheese. You're not mugging me off that easily

1:11pm Mon 4 Nov 13

J.C - Rishton says...

J.C - Rishton wrote:
owd nick wrote:
jack01 wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so:

Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking.

That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme.

So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m.

Do you realise your sustainable income is:
Championship TV £3m
Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m
Sponsorships say £3m

Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????)

Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.

With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well.

Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.
Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here.

You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners?

You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is.

The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further.

If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club.

So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.
Excellent post Jack01, saves me the effort.

Ok the figures aren't good but in all honesty who expected us to be turning a profit after the debacle of the last two seasons? I certainly didn't, relegation was bad but last seasons stupidity broke all possible barriers.

Venky's are key now, they have already written off £25 million and the bulk of the current debt is owed to them or their bank in the form of an overdraft.

There don't appear to be anymore major creditors, and the simple fact most are forgetting is that Venky's are billionaires, this debt is pocket money to them, and trust them or not it can't be argued that they are scared of putting their hands in their wallets when its needed.

And before the knobheads start screaming "Parachute Payments" the simple fact of life is that when Venky's took us over any revenue coming into the club became theirs, as did responsibility for any debts.

It's how the books stand at the end of this season that matters, not last season, or the season before, the way the club is being restructured this season with football people running it at last suggests our esteemed owners have learned some extremely painful financial and cultural lessons.

Hopefully it's not too late and they will find a way out of this mess before the end of the season.
Hi, Owd Nick and Jacko - I'm sorry but I don't agree on most of the principak points you make -

1 - Jacko says that "the debt is too Venkys" - so what ?? - its still a debt that can be called in at any time. If Venkys cared so much about Rovers why don't they "gift" the club that money then there would be no debt at all - think about it, if they arnt going to claim reypayment of it then why don't they just write off all the debt ?
2 - Venkys could give the club money at the moment - there is nothing to stop them. FFP has not kicked in yet so if they are so great (as you two always seem to infer) then why don't they do it - they do it at Man City, AV, QPR, Watford etc etc ???
3- Also, you talk about "written guarantees" to, ineffect underwrite the debt - this is a corporate LEGAL REQUIREMENT in the UK for any company with a parent company when the subsiduary is trading insolvently - it is meaningless and is totally unenforcable under UK law (and everybody except 2 or 3 on here knows that Venkys are the biggest liars ever put on this earth).
4 - You say that Venkys are "billionaires" and this money is "nothing to them" - whilst combined in assets they (on paper) may be billionaires, in their last published accounts Venkys India only made just over £100 million profit - almost 50% of Rovers losses - hardly chicken feed, no matter how rich you are and also bear in mind that Venkys India has other (non Venky family members as shareholders) people who take a slice of that £100 million.
5- Word from India recently (about 8-10 weeks ago) was that Venkerash on his own had made that guarantee to the bank NOT the Venkys as a family - if that is true then that is another worrying development but since this disgusting family never deems to "comunicate" with us scum (its customers)then it is very difficult to find out where the club is in reality but to blandly brush it off as "well we knew things were financially bad so its all old news" is really underestimating to extent of this financial crisis - because that is what it is, a HUGE FINANCIAL HOLE that the club is sinking in more and more, day by day and if you think that getting players like Orr and Best off the books is going to solve it then you simply have no comprehension of the SIZE of the mess we are in.

Lastly, do you really put your faith in the Venkys and Derek Shaw to have the financial and football nous to get the club out of this mess because I certainly don't !!
Old Nick also says that some of this debt is from last season or before and infers that so somehow that dosent matter - of course it matters - it still DEBT no matter how recent or how old !!

Old Nick ends by saying that hopefully it'll all be sorted by "the end of this season" - a statement which shows your total lack of understanding in this situation - unless something happens out of left field - like Venkys actually putting in £50m in hard cash or them selling to some other mug with plently of money - this situation is going to CRIPPLE the club for years - that is the REALITY of this financial crisis - we are going to be the football equivilant of GREECE - you really need to try to understand the figures here and look at our expected future income Vs our debts - it does not make good reading.

The other option is for Venkys to walk away and for the club to go into administration - this would ensure alot of short-term pain but the club would emerge out of it, Venky and debt free - so it does have plus points.

Please. just for once, take off your Rovers tinted specs and see the financial situation for what it is - DIRE and not just for now but for the next few years.
[quote][p][bold]J.C - Rishton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]owd nick[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jack01[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so: Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking. That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme. So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m. Do you realise your sustainable income is: Championship TV £3m Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m Sponsorships say £3m Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????) Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well. Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.[/p][/quote]Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here. You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners? You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is. The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further. If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club. So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.[/p][/quote]Excellent post Jack01, saves me the effort. Ok the figures aren't good but in all honesty who expected us to be turning a profit after the debacle of the last two seasons? I certainly didn't, relegation was bad but last seasons stupidity broke all possible barriers. Venky's are key now, they have already written off £25 million and the bulk of the current debt is owed to them or their bank in the form of an overdraft. There don't appear to be anymore major creditors, and the simple fact most are forgetting is that Venky's are billionaires, this debt is pocket money to them, and trust them or not it can't be argued that they are scared of putting their hands in their wallets when its needed. And before the knobheads start screaming "Parachute Payments" the simple fact of life is that when Venky's took us over any revenue coming into the club became theirs, as did responsibility for any debts. It's how the books stand at the end of this season that matters, not last season, or the season before, the way the club is being restructured this season with football people running it at last suggests our esteemed owners have learned some extremely painful financial and cultural lessons. Hopefully it's not too late and they will find a way out of this mess before the end of the season.[/p][/quote]Hi, Owd Nick and Jacko - I'm sorry but I don't agree on most of the principak points you make - 1 - Jacko says that "the debt is too Venkys" - so what ?? - its still a debt that can be called in at any time. If Venkys cared so much about Rovers why don't they "gift" the club that money then there would be no debt at all - think about it, if they arnt going to claim reypayment of it then why don't they just write off all the debt ? 2 - Venkys could give the club money at the moment - there is nothing to stop them. FFP has not kicked in yet so if they are so great (as you two always seem to infer) then why don't they do it - they do it at Man City, AV, QPR, Watford etc etc ??? 3- Also, you talk about "written guarantees" to, ineffect underwrite the debt - this is a corporate LEGAL REQUIREMENT in the UK for any company with a parent company when the subsiduary is trading insolvently - it is meaningless and is totally unenforcable under UK law (and everybody except 2 or 3 on here knows that Venkys are the biggest liars ever put on this earth). 4 - You say that Venkys are "billionaires" and this money is "nothing to them" - whilst combined in assets they (on paper) may be billionaires, in their last published accounts Venkys India only made just over £100 million profit - almost 50% of Rovers losses - hardly chicken feed, no matter how rich you are and also bear in mind that Venkys India has other (non Venky family members as shareholders) people who take a slice of that £100 million. 5- Word from India recently (about 8-10 weeks ago) was that Venkerash on his own had made that guarantee to the bank NOT the Venkys as a family - if that is true then that is another worrying development but since this disgusting family never deems to "comunicate" with us scum (its customers)then it is very difficult to find out where the club is in reality but to blandly brush it off as "well we knew things were financially bad so its all old news" is really underestimating to extent of this financial crisis - because that is what it is, a HUGE FINANCIAL HOLE that the club is sinking in more and more, day by day and if you think that getting players like Orr and Best off the books is going to solve it then you simply have no comprehension of the SIZE of the mess we are in. Lastly, do you really put your faith in the Venkys and Derek Shaw to have the financial and football nous to get the club out of this mess because I certainly don't !![/p][/quote]Old Nick also says that some of this debt is from last season or before and infers that so somehow that dosent matter - of course it matters - it still DEBT no matter how recent or how old !! Old Nick ends by saying that hopefully it'll all be sorted by "the end of this season" - a statement which shows your total lack of understanding in this situation - unless something happens out of left field - like Venkys actually putting in £50m in hard cash or them selling to some other mug with plently of money - this situation is going to CRIPPLE the club for years - that is the REALITY of this financial crisis - we are going to be the football equivilant of GREECE - you really need to try to understand the figures here and look at our expected future income Vs our debts - it does not make good reading. The other option is for Venkys to walk away and for the club to go into administration - this would ensure alot of short-term pain but the club would emerge out of it, Venky and debt free - so it does have plus points. Please. just for once, take off your Rovers tinted specs and see the financial situation for what it is - DIRE and not just for now but for the next few years. J.C - Rishton

1:14pm Mon 4 Nov 13

we.love.u.venkys says...

Is this is the end of the road for BRFC?

Understandably the fans don't want to accept it but its all there in black and white, dress it up any way you like but you are 100% Donald Ducked.

Blackburn Rovers will be forced to slash costs at the earliest opportunity which will have clubs on alert for the likes of Jordan Rhodes and other higher earners at knock-down prices. The fact is BRFC now HAVE to sell. January will see a massive change to your playing squad as numbers are cut reduce the wage bill and panic sales are made to offset the massive losses.

If Venky's were willing to bail you out would they not have done so long ago? They are quite clearly not willing to write off such horrific losses, and why should they? As the post above states, this is a major financial crisis for Blackburn Rovers and nothing but drastic action ASAP will save your club. I believe that lower league football is inevitable but the real danger is going out of business altogether, an outcome that many don't even want to comprehend.

I'm afraid it could all be too little too late. You are heading the same way as Portsmouth and if your club isn't restructured entirely you could well fold within 2 or 3 seasons. A sad end to a "once proud" club.
Is this is the end of the road for BRFC? Understandably the fans don't want to accept it but its all there in black and white, dress it up any way you like but you are 100% Donald Ducked. Blackburn Rovers will be forced to slash costs at the earliest opportunity which will have clubs on alert for the likes of Jordan Rhodes and other higher earners at knock-down prices. The fact is BRFC now HAVE to sell. January will see a massive change to your playing squad as numbers are cut reduce the wage bill and panic sales are made to offset the massive losses. If Venky's were willing to bail you out would they not have done so long ago? They are quite clearly not willing to write off such horrific losses, and why should they? As the post above states, this is a major financial crisis for Blackburn Rovers and nothing but drastic action ASAP will save your club. I believe that lower league football is inevitable but the real danger is going out of business altogether, an outcome that many don't even want to comprehend. I'm afraid it could all be too little too late. You are heading the same way as Portsmouth and if your club isn't restructured entirely you could well fold within 2 or 3 seasons. A sad end to a "once proud" club. we.love.u.venkys

1:17pm Mon 4 Nov 13

TurfMoorTom says...

Trimming your squad you could line up:

Kean
Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr
Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney
Rhodes King

With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable.........
..
Trimming your squad you could line up: Kean Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney Rhodes King With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable......... .. TurfMoorTom

1:24pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Wild Rover says...

Turf Moor Tom is just another manifestation our Resident Troll of fake account fame. Not even a Dingle
Please do not respond to this 24/7 stalker of Rovers in all his many disguises.
He is a low life piece of dung clinging to the feet of loyal Rovers.
Turf Moor Tom is just another manifestation our Resident Troll of fake account fame. Not even a Dingle Please do not respond to this 24/7 stalker of Rovers in all his many disguises. He is a low life piece of dung clinging to the feet of loyal Rovers. Wild Rover

1:24pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Wild Rover says...

Turf Moor Tom is just another manifestation our Resident Troll of fake account fame. Not even a Dingle
Please do not respond to this 24/7 stalker of Rovers in all his many disguises.
He is a low life piece of dung clinging to the feet of loyal Rovers.
Turf Moor Tom is just another manifestation our Resident Troll of fake account fame. Not even a Dingle Please do not respond to this 24/7 stalker of Rovers in all his many disguises. He is a low life piece of dung clinging to the feet of loyal Rovers. Wild Rover

1:43pm Mon 4 Nov 13

barlickmafia says...

jack01 wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so:

Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking.

That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme.

So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m.

Do you realise your sustainable income is:
Championship TV £3m
Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m
Sponsorships say £3m

Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????)

Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.

With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well.

Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.
Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here.

You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners?

You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is.

The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further.

If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club.

So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.
Our cloth has been cut accordingly. We lost 8 million last year, however we have got rid of the high earners and the loss last year didnt include the sale of Charlie Austin. We also bought our ground back which puts us in an even better financial position. We are forecasted to at least break even this financial year. This is not factoring in the fact that we are top of the league and crowds will probably be higher.
Anybody trying to put a rosy picture on these figures wants their heads testing!!
Burnley have gone about things the right way!! We used the parachute payments to buy plyers and pay wages. All trying to bounce straight back into the Premier league. When this didnt happen we started planning for the FFP rules (which 22 out of the 24 championship clubs agreed to). We are going to reap the benefits of this stratagy while Rovers are going to constantly be in fear of the Venky's pulling the plug!!!
[quote][p][bold]jack01[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so: Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking. That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme. So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m. Do you realise your sustainable income is: Championship TV £3m Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m Sponsorships say £3m Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????) Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well. Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.[/p][/quote]Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here. You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners? You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is. The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further. If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club. So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.[/p][/quote]Our cloth has been cut accordingly. We lost 8 million last year, however we have got rid of the high earners and the loss last year didnt include the sale of Charlie Austin. We also bought our ground back which puts us in an even better financial position. We are forecasted to at least break even this financial year. This is not factoring in the fact that we are top of the league and crowds will probably be higher. Anybody trying to put a rosy picture on these figures wants their heads testing!! Burnley have gone about things the right way!! We used the parachute payments to buy plyers and pay wages. All trying to bounce straight back into the Premier league. When this didnt happen we started planning for the FFP rules (which 22 out of the 24 championship clubs agreed to). We are going to reap the benefits of this stratagy while Rovers are going to constantly be in fear of the Venky's pulling the plug!!! barlickmafia

1:43pm Mon 4 Nov 13

we.love.u.venkys says...

TurfMoorTom wrote:
Trimming your squad you could line up:

Kean
Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr
Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney
Rhodes King

With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable.........

..
What a parasite you are. Ridiculed time and again by both Burnley and Blackburn fans, how embarrassing.

The truth is you are a sad excuse for a Blackburn Rovers supporter and your views are nonsense. Get a life.
[quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: Trimming your squad you could line up: Kean Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney Rhodes King With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable......... ..[/p][/quote]What a parasite you are. Ridiculed time and again by both Burnley and Blackburn fans, how embarrassing. The truth is you are a sad excuse for a Blackburn Rovers supporter and your views are nonsense. Get a life. we.love.u.venkys

1:54pm Mon 4 Nov 13

LittleRonnieHildersley says...

Interesting debate - I tend to agree with TMT on the point that our wage structure needs to be more sustainable. As for the debt - it's huge yet smaller than a number of other clubs in a similar predicament (Bolton, Wolves for example).

Despite the possible threat of being called a Venkys lover or Happy Clapper I'm not sure there are many realistic alternatives at the moment other than the club continuing to reduce player costs, increase commercial revenue, stick with Bowyer and hopefully wish for some success on the pitch because at the end of the day that's what will keep rovers afloat and make us a potential future saleable asset (if that is ever likely to happen) or a realistic option for a part trust ownership model (like Swansea). None of us are happy with what has happened but to keep moaning about it doesn't serve any purpose......

And as for the no life dingle troll who is always on here....best to ignore her
Interesting debate - I tend to agree with TMT on the point that our wage structure needs to be more sustainable. As for the debt - it's huge yet smaller than a number of other clubs in a similar predicament (Bolton, Wolves for example). Despite the possible threat of being called a Venkys lover or Happy Clapper I'm not sure there are many realistic alternatives at the moment other than the club continuing to reduce player costs, increase commercial revenue, stick with Bowyer and hopefully wish for some success on the pitch because at the end of the day that's what will keep rovers afloat and make us a potential future saleable asset (if that is ever likely to happen) or a realistic option for a part trust ownership model (like Swansea). None of us are happy with what has happened but to keep moaning about it doesn't serve any purpose...... And as for the no life dingle troll who is always on here....best to ignore her LittleRonnieHildersley

2:27pm Mon 4 Nov 13

TurfMoorTom says...

we.love.u.venkys wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
Trimming your squad you could line up:

Kean
Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr
Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney
Rhodes King

With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable.........


..
What a parasite you are. Ridiculed time and again by both Burnley and Blackburn fans, how embarrassing.

The truth is you are a sad excuse for a Blackburn Rovers supporter and your views are nonsense. Get a life.
I'm a Rovers supporter and my views are nonsense? How offensive, who would expect someone to go to the trouble of joining a supporters chat forum pretending to be something they weren't? Some seem to think my views are quite well thought out - from the scores I'm beating you 58-2??
[quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: Trimming your squad you could line up: Kean Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney Rhodes King With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable......... ..[/p][/quote]What a parasite you are. Ridiculed time and again by both Burnley and Blackburn fans, how embarrassing. The truth is you are a sad excuse for a Blackburn Rovers supporter and your views are nonsense. Get a life.[/p][/quote]I'm a Rovers supporter and my views are nonsense? How offensive, who would expect someone to go to the trouble of joining a supporters chat forum pretending to be something they weren't? Some seem to think my views are quite well thought out - from the scores I'm beating you 58-2?? TurfMoorTom

2:33pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Champagne plus charlie says...

TurfMoorTom wrote:
we.love.u.venkys wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
Trimming your squad you could line up:

Kean
Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr
Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney
Rhodes King

With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable.........



..
What a parasite you are. Ridiculed time and again by both Burnley and Blackburn fans, how embarrassing.

The truth is you are a sad excuse for a Blackburn Rovers supporter and your views are nonsense. Get a life.
I'm a Rovers supporter and my views are nonsense? How offensive, who would expect someone to go to the trouble of joining a supporters chat forum pretending to be something they weren't? Some seem to think my views are quite well thought out - from the scores I'm beating you 58-2??
Why on earth would a Rovers supporter name themselves TurfMoorTom?
[quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: Trimming your squad you could line up: Kean Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney Rhodes King With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable......... ..[/p][/quote]What a parasite you are. Ridiculed time and again by both Burnley and Blackburn fans, how embarrassing. The truth is you are a sad excuse for a Blackburn Rovers supporter and your views are nonsense. Get a life.[/p][/quote]I'm a Rovers supporter and my views are nonsense? How offensive, who would expect someone to go to the trouble of joining a supporters chat forum pretending to be something they weren't? Some seem to think my views are quite well thought out - from the scores I'm beating you 58-2??[/p][/quote]Why on earth would a Rovers supporter name themselves TurfMoorTom? Champagne plus charlie

2:41pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Lancs - pensioner says...

we.love.u.venkys wrote:
Lancs - pensioner wrote:
Lancs -pensioner wrote:
I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...
Morning Fake, how's your sister you thick dingle?
Love how the real LP has got this fake one panicking again.

Lancs - pensioner = FAKE, incest obsessed ignoramus.

Lancs -pensioner = Genuine, sensible Blackburn Rovers supporter.

Ban the fake Lancs - pensioner!
I don't think you will be seeing the fake one much longer!!!!!!!!!! He's comments have been removed!!
[quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs -pensioner[/bold] wrote: I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...[/p][/quote]Morning Fake, how's your sister you thick dingle?[/p][/quote]Love how the real LP has got this fake one panicking again. Lancs - pensioner = FAKE, incest obsessed ignoramus. Lancs -pensioner = Genuine, sensible Blackburn Rovers supporter. Ban the fake Lancs - pensioner![/p][/quote]I don't think you will be seeing the fake one much longer!!!!!!!!!! He's comments have been removed!! Lancs - pensioner

2:42pm Mon 4 Nov 13

we.love.u.venkys says...

TurfMoorTom wrote:
we.love.u.venkys wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
Trimming your squad you could line up:

Kean
Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr
Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney
Rhodes King

With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable.........



..
What a parasite you are. Ridiculed time and again by both Burnley and Blackburn fans, how embarrassing.

The truth is you are a sad excuse for a Blackburn Rovers supporter and your views are nonsense. Get a life.
I'm a Rovers supporter and my views are nonsense? How offensive, who would expect someone to go to the trouble of joining a supporters chat forum pretending to be something they weren't? Some seem to think my views are quite well thought out - from the scores I'm beating you 58-2??
What an absolute b@llbag you are.

Otherwise knows an Fake_Villa. A disgrace to honest football fans who use these message boards for constructive discussion and debate.

You are a b45tard who has never been accepted by other b45tards and have become confused about your feelings towards Burnley, a far, far superior club; hence the name TurfMoorTom. You long to be a Claret but it will never happen. You remain a sad, lonely, Shadsworth reprobate.
[quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: Trimming your squad you could line up: Kean Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney Rhodes King With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable......... ..[/p][/quote]What a parasite you are. Ridiculed time and again by both Burnley and Blackburn fans, how embarrassing. The truth is you are a sad excuse for a Blackburn Rovers supporter and your views are nonsense. Get a life.[/p][/quote]I'm a Rovers supporter and my views are nonsense? How offensive, who would expect someone to go to the trouble of joining a supporters chat forum pretending to be something they weren't? Some seem to think my views are quite well thought out - from the scores I'm beating you 58-2??[/p][/quote]What an absolute b@llbag you are. Otherwise knows an Fake_Villa. A disgrace to honest football fans who use these message boards for constructive discussion and debate. You are a b45tard who has never been accepted by other b45tards and have become confused about your feelings towards Burnley, a far, far superior club; hence the name TurfMoorTom. You long to be a Claret but it will never happen. You remain a sad, lonely, Shadsworth reprobate. we.love.u.venkys

2:47pm Mon 4 Nov 13

we.love.u.venkys says...

Lancs - pensioner wrote:
we.love.u.venkys wrote:
Lancs - pensioner wrote:
Lancs -pensioner wrote:
I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...
Morning Fake, how's your sister you thick dingle?
Love how the real LP has got this fake one panicking again.

Lancs - pensioner = FAKE, incest obsessed ignoramus.

Lancs -pensioner = Genuine, sensible Blackburn Rovers supporter.

Ban the fake Lancs - pensioner!
I don't think you will be seeing the fake one much longer!!!!!!!!!! He's comments have been removed!!
Haha brilliant, the fake LP has now managed to get the real LP banned. Whatever next. Well done son!
[quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs -pensioner[/bold] wrote: I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...[/p][/quote]Morning Fake, how's your sister you thick dingle?[/p][/quote]Love how the real LP has got this fake one panicking again. Lancs - pensioner = FAKE, incest obsessed ignoramus. Lancs -pensioner = Genuine, sensible Blackburn Rovers supporter. Ban the fake Lancs - pensioner![/p][/quote]I don't think you will be seeing the fake one much longer!!!!!!!!!! He's comments have been removed!![/p][/quote]Haha brilliant, the fake LP has now managed to get the real LP banned. Whatever next. Well done son! we.love.u.venkys

2:48pm Mon 4 Nov 13

BRFC75 says...

owd nick wrote:
BRFC75 wrote:
There is still a number of Big earners ,not putting in a shift , we all know who they are , also too many players conveniently nearly permanently injured.

Wonder how many of our players that keep putting into the papers about their loyalty and support would volunteer to take a drop to keep the ship afloat , none I would guess.
Singh and Hendry both on. 400,000 pounds a year , no body knows what they do for their money anymore.

Think GB deserves the money he gets irrespective of anything that happens on the pitch , the guy is genuinely trying his best to keep the sinking ship afloat.

The massive debt means , make changes now or the trustees will make changes for you , it's not a question of premier league now it's a question of survival.
Who are the trustees?
They,ll be appointed by the court when bankruptcy is petitioned for or the courts declare it when the unpaid debts reach the magistrates court.
[quote][p][bold]owd nick[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]BRFC75[/bold] wrote: There is still a number of Big earners ,not putting in a shift , we all know who they are , also too many players conveniently nearly permanently injured. Wonder how many of our players that keep putting into the papers about their loyalty and support would volunteer to take a drop to keep the ship afloat , none I would guess. Singh and Hendry both on. 400,000 pounds a year , no body knows what they do for their money anymore. Think GB deserves the money he gets irrespective of anything that happens on the pitch , the guy is genuinely trying his best to keep the sinking ship afloat. The massive debt means , make changes now or the trustees will make changes for you , it's not a question of premier league now it's a question of survival.[/p][/quote]Who are the trustees?[/p][/quote]They,ll be appointed by the court when bankruptcy is petitioned for or the courts declare it when the unpaid debts reach the magistrates court. BRFC75

2:51pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Lancs - pensioner says...

we.love.u.venkys wrote:
Lancs - pensioner wrote:
we.love.u.venkys wrote:
Lancs - pensioner wrote:
Lancs -pensioner wrote:
I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...
Morning Fake, how's your sister you thick dingle?
Love how the real LP has got this fake one panicking again.

Lancs - pensioner = FAKE, incest obsessed ignoramus.

Lancs -pensioner = Genuine, sensible Blackburn Rovers supporter.

Ban the fake Lancs - pensioner!
I don't think you will be seeing the fake one much longer!!!!!!!!!! He's comments have been removed!!
Haha brilliant, the fake LP has now managed to get the real LP banned. Whatever next. Well done son!
Only the fake would know that, so it was you, hahahahahahahahhahah
ahahahahahauauhahaha
We also love the Venkys and your sister!!!!!
[quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs -pensioner[/bold] wrote: I've been saying this for years now the writings on the wall financial meltdown is onthe horizen the sooner we go into administration for me the better get back to basics in the lower league other teams have been there and done it..Out with venkys shaw and hendry...[/p][/quote]Morning Fake, how's your sister you thick dingle?[/p][/quote]Love how the real LP has got this fake one panicking again. Lancs - pensioner = FAKE, incest obsessed ignoramus. Lancs -pensioner = Genuine, sensible Blackburn Rovers supporter. Ban the fake Lancs - pensioner![/p][/quote]I don't think you will be seeing the fake one much longer!!!!!!!!!! He's comments have been removed!![/p][/quote]Haha brilliant, the fake LP has now managed to get the real LP banned. Whatever next. Well done son![/p][/quote]Only the fake would know that, so it was you, hahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahauauhahaha We also love the Venkys and your sister!!!!! Lancs - pensioner

3:24pm Mon 4 Nov 13

crankitup says...

£54m in debt!......you see the damage chicken farmers can do when they are let loose on a premiership team?.....i hope you all rot in hell...and soon.

i hope you are having a happy new year...NOT, and watch out for them chicken bones...they can be fatal...... with any luck

VENKYS DROP DEAD
£54m in debt!......you see the damage chicken farmers can do when they are let loose on a premiership team?.....i hope you all rot in hell...and soon. i hope you are having a happy new year...NOT, and watch out for them chicken bones...they can be fatal...... with any luck VENKYS DROP DEAD crankitup

3:40pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Sherwoodforest says...

J.C - Rishton wrote:
owd nick wrote:
jack01 wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so:

Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking.

That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme.

So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m.

Do you realise your sustainable income is:
Championship TV £3m
Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m
Sponsorships say £3m

Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????)

Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.

With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well.

Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.
Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here.

You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners?

You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is.

The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further.

If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club.

So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.
Excellent post Jack01, saves me the effort.

Ok the figures aren't good but in all honesty who expected us to be turning a profit after the debacle of the last two seasons? I certainly didn't, relegation was bad but last seasons stupidity broke all possible barriers.

Venky's are key now, they have already written off £25 million and the bulk of the current debt is owed to them or their bank in the form of an overdraft.

There don't appear to be anymore major creditors, and the simple fact most are forgetting is that Venky's are billionaires, this debt is pocket money to them, and trust them or not it can't be argued that they are scared of putting their hands in their wallets when its needed.

And before the knobheads start screaming "Parachute Payments" the simple fact of life is that when Venky's took us over any revenue coming into the club became theirs, as did responsibility for any debts.

It's how the books stand at the end of this season that matters, not last season, or the season before, the way the club is being restructured this season with football people running it at last suggests our esteemed owners have learned some extremely painful financial and cultural lessons.

Hopefully it's not too late and they will find a way out of this mess before the end of the season.
Hi, Owd Nick and Jacko - I'm sorry but I don't agree on most of the principak points you make -

1 - Jacko says that "the debt is too Venkys" - so what ?? - its still a debt that can be called in at any time. If Venkys cared so much about Rovers why don't they "gift" the club that money then there would be no debt at all - think about it, if they arnt going to claim reypayment of it then why don't they just write off all the debt ?
2 - Venkys could give the club money at the moment - there is nothing to stop them. FFP has not kicked in yet so if they are so great (as you two always seem to infer) then why don't they do it - they do it at Man City, AV, QPR, Watford etc etc ???
3- Also, you talk about "written guarantees" to, ineffect underwrite the debt - this is a corporate LEGAL REQUIREMENT in the UK for any company with a parent company when the subsiduary is trading insolvently - it is meaningless and is totally unenforcable under UK law (and everybody except 2 or 3 on here knows that Venkys are the biggest liars ever put on this earth).
4 - You say that Venkys are "billionaires" and this money is "nothing to them" - whilst combined in assets they (on paper) may be billionaires, in their last published accounts Venkys India only made just over £100 million profit - almost 50% of Rovers losses - hardly chicken feed, no matter how rich you are and also bear in mind that Venkys India has other (non Venky family members as shareholders) people who take a slice of that £100 million.
5- Word from India recently (about 8-10 weeks ago) was that Venkerash on his own had made that guarantee to the bank NOT the Venkys as a family - if that is true then that is another worrying development but since this disgusting family never deems to "comunicate" with us scum (its customers)then it is very difficult to find out where the club is in reality but to blandly brush it off as "well we knew things were financially bad so its all old news" is really underestimating to extent of this financial crisis - because that is what it is, a HUGE FINANCIAL HOLE that the club is sinking in more and more, day by day and if you think that getting players like Orr and Best off the books is going to solve it then you simply have no comprehension of the SIZE of the mess we are in.

Lastly, do you really put your faith in the Venkys and Derek Shaw to have the financial and football nous to get the club out of this mess because I certainly don't !!
Well said JC completely agree with this.
[quote][p][bold]J.C - Rishton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]owd nick[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jack01[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so: Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking. That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme. So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m. Do you realise your sustainable income is: Championship TV £3m Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m Sponsorships say £3m Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????) Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well. Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.[/p][/quote]Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here. You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners? You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is. The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further. If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club. So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.[/p][/quote]Excellent post Jack01, saves me the effort. Ok the figures aren't good but in all honesty who expected us to be turning a profit after the debacle of the last two seasons? I certainly didn't, relegation was bad but last seasons stupidity broke all possible barriers. Venky's are key now, they have already written off £25 million and the bulk of the current debt is owed to them or their bank in the form of an overdraft. There don't appear to be anymore major creditors, and the simple fact most are forgetting is that Venky's are billionaires, this debt is pocket money to them, and trust them or not it can't be argued that they are scared of putting their hands in their wallets when its needed. And before the knobheads start screaming "Parachute Payments" the simple fact of life is that when Venky's took us over any revenue coming into the club became theirs, as did responsibility for any debts. It's how the books stand at the end of this season that matters, not last season, or the season before, the way the club is being restructured this season with football people running it at last suggests our esteemed owners have learned some extremely painful financial and cultural lessons. Hopefully it's not too late and they will find a way out of this mess before the end of the season.[/p][/quote]Hi, Owd Nick and Jacko - I'm sorry but I don't agree on most of the principak points you make - 1 - Jacko says that "the debt is too Venkys" - so what ?? - its still a debt that can be called in at any time. If Venkys cared so much about Rovers why don't they "gift" the club that money then there would be no debt at all - think about it, if they arnt going to claim reypayment of it then why don't they just write off all the debt ? 2 - Venkys could give the club money at the moment - there is nothing to stop them. FFP has not kicked in yet so if they are so great (as you two always seem to infer) then why don't they do it - they do it at Man City, AV, QPR, Watford etc etc ??? 3- Also, you talk about "written guarantees" to, ineffect underwrite the debt - this is a corporate LEGAL REQUIREMENT in the UK for any company with a parent company when the subsiduary is trading insolvently - it is meaningless and is totally unenforcable under UK law (and everybody except 2 or 3 on here knows that Venkys are the biggest liars ever put on this earth). 4 - You say that Venkys are "billionaires" and this money is "nothing to them" - whilst combined in assets they (on paper) may be billionaires, in their last published accounts Venkys India only made just over £100 million profit - almost 50% of Rovers losses - hardly chicken feed, no matter how rich you are and also bear in mind that Venkys India has other (non Venky family members as shareholders) people who take a slice of that £100 million. 5- Word from India recently (about 8-10 weeks ago) was that Venkerash on his own had made that guarantee to the bank NOT the Venkys as a family - if that is true then that is another worrying development but since this disgusting family never deems to "comunicate" with us scum (its customers)then it is very difficult to find out where the club is in reality but to blandly brush it off as "well we knew things were financially bad so its all old news" is really underestimating to extent of this financial crisis - because that is what it is, a HUGE FINANCIAL HOLE that the club is sinking in more and more, day by day and if you think that getting players like Orr and Best off the books is going to solve it then you simply have no comprehension of the SIZE of the mess we are in. Lastly, do you really put your faith in the Venkys and Derek Shaw to have the financial and football nous to get the club out of this mess because I certainly don't !![/p][/quote]Well said JC completely agree with this. Sherwoodforest

3:44pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Lancs - pensioner. says...

Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..
Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me.. Lancs - pensioner.

4:11pm Mon 4 Nov 13

we.love.u.venkys says...

Lancs - pensioner. wrote:
Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..
Always knew you were a closet Claret. Well done for coming out old man.

LP - Burnley and proud!
[quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner.[/bold] wrote: Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..[/p][/quote]Always knew you were a closet Claret. Well done for coming out old man. LP - Burnley and proud! we.love.u.venkys

4:35pm Mon 4 Nov 13

jim 2012 says...

we.love.u.venkys wrote:
What an utter shambles of a football club. A disgrace from top to bottom.

League One awaits.
BURNLEY have suffered a 'shocking' £8million loss for the last financial year, it has emerged.

The deficit for 2012-13 is almost double the figure projected for the previous year.
pot calling kettle me thinks
[quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: What an utter shambles of a football club. A disgrace from top to bottom. League One awaits.[/p][/quote]BURNLEY have suffered a 'shocking' £8million loss for the last financial year, it has emerged. The deficit for 2012-13 is almost double the figure projected for the previous year. pot calling kettle me thinks jim 2012

4:47pm Mon 4 Nov 13

we.love.u.venkys says...

jim 2012 wrote:
we.love.u.venkys wrote:
What an utter shambles of a football club. A disgrace from top to bottom.

League One awaits.
BURNLEY have suffered a 'shocking' £8million loss for the last financial year, it has emerged.

The deficit for 2012-13 is almost double the figure projected for the previous year.
pot calling kettle me thinks
Come on Jim, get yourself up to date for gods sake.

Burnley posted an £8 Million loss which did not take into account the approx. £3 Million received for Charlie Austin and does include the Turf Moor and Gawthorpe re-purchase, which stabilises the club even further. The directors have since reported that Burnley will likely break even this year. And we're top of the league, in case you haven't noticed.

In other news Blackburn Rovers debts are now on a par with several Third World countries as Venky's continue to do an IMMENSE job of destroying Blackburn Rovers. £54.5 Million in debt? Oh dear.
[quote][p][bold]jim 2012[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: What an utter shambles of a football club. A disgrace from top to bottom. League One awaits.[/p][/quote]BURNLEY have suffered a 'shocking' £8million loss for the last financial year, it has emerged. The deficit for 2012-13 is almost double the figure projected for the previous year. pot calling kettle me thinks[/p][/quote]Come on Jim, get yourself up to date for gods sake. Burnley posted an £8 Million loss which did not take into account the approx. £3 Million received for Charlie Austin and does include the Turf Moor and Gawthorpe re-purchase, which stabilises the club even further. The directors have since reported that Burnley will likely break even this year. And we're top of the league, in case you haven't noticed. In other news Blackburn Rovers debts are now on a par with several Third World countries as Venky's continue to do an IMMENSE job of destroying Blackburn Rovers. £54.5 Million in debt? Oh dear. we.love.u.venkys

4:54pm Mon 4 Nov 13

owd nick says...

J.C - Rishton wrote:
J.C - Rishton wrote:
owd nick wrote:
jack01 wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so:

Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking.

That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme.

So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m.

Do you realise your sustainable income is:
Championship TV £3m
Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m
Sponsorships say £3m

Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????)

Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.

With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well.

Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.
Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here.

You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners?

You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is.

The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further.

If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club.

So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.
Excellent post Jack01, saves me the effort.

Ok the figures aren't good but in all honesty who expected us to be turning a profit after the debacle of the last two seasons? I certainly didn't, relegation was bad but last seasons stupidity broke all possible barriers.

Venky's are key now, they have already written off £25 million and the bulk of the current debt is owed to them or their bank in the form of an overdraft.

There don't appear to be anymore major creditors, and the simple fact most are forgetting is that Venky's are billionaires, this debt is pocket money to them, and trust them or not it can't be argued that they are scared of putting their hands in their wallets when its needed.

And before the knobheads start screaming "Parachute Payments" the simple fact of life is that when Venky's took us over any revenue coming into the club became theirs, as did responsibility for any debts.

It's how the books stand at the end of this season that matters, not last season, or the season before, the way the club is being restructured this season with football people running it at last suggests our esteemed owners have learned some extremely painful financial and cultural lessons.

Hopefully it's not too late and they will find a way out of this mess before the end of the season.
Hi, Owd Nick and Jacko - I'm sorry but I don't agree on most of the principak points you make -

1 - Jacko says that "the debt is too Venkys" - so what ?? - its still a debt that can be called in at any time. If Venkys cared so much about Rovers why don't they "gift" the club that money then there would be no debt at all - think about it, if they arnt going to claim reypayment of it then why don't they just write off all the debt ?
2 - Venkys could give the club money at the moment - there is nothing to stop them. FFP has not kicked in yet so if they are so great (as you two always seem to infer) then why don't they do it - they do it at Man City, AV, QPR, Watford etc etc ???
3- Also, you talk about "written guarantees" to, ineffect underwrite the debt - this is a corporate LEGAL REQUIREMENT in the UK for any company with a parent company when the subsiduary is trading insolvently - it is meaningless and is totally unenforcable under UK law (and everybody except 2 or 3 on here knows that Venkys are the biggest liars ever put on this earth).
4 - You say that Venkys are "billionaires" and this money is "nothing to them" - whilst combined in assets they (on paper) may be billionaires, in their last published accounts Venkys India only made just over £100 million profit - almost 50% of Rovers losses - hardly chicken feed, no matter how rich you are and also bear in mind that Venkys India has other (non Venky family members as shareholders) people who take a slice of that £100 million.
5- Word from India recently (about 8-10 weeks ago) was that Venkerash on his own had made that guarantee to the bank NOT the Venkys as a family - if that is true then that is another worrying development but since this disgusting family never deems to "comunicate" with us scum (its customers)then it is very difficult to find out where the club is in reality but to blandly brush it off as "well we knew things were financially bad so its all old news" is really underestimating to extent of this financial crisis - because that is what it is, a HUGE FINANCIAL HOLE that the club is sinking in more and more, day by day and if you think that getting players like Orr and Best off the books is going to solve it then you simply have no comprehension of the SIZE of the mess we are in.

Lastly, do you really put your faith in the Venkys and Derek Shaw to have the financial and football nous to get the club out of this mess because I certainly don't !!
Old Nick also says that some of this debt is from last season or before and infers that so somehow that dosent matter - of course it matters - it still DEBT no matter how recent or how old !!

Old Nick ends by saying that hopefully it'll all be sorted by "the end of this season" - a statement which shows your total lack of understanding in this situation - unless something happens out of left field - like Venkys actually putting in £50m in hard cash or them selling to some other mug with plently of money - this situation is going to CRIPPLE the club for years - that is the REALITY of this financial crisis - we are going to be the football equivilant of GREECE - you really need to try to understand the figures here and look at our expected future income Vs our debts - it does not make good reading.

The other option is for Venkys to walk away and for the club to go into administration - this would ensure alot of short-term pain but the club would emerge out of it, Venky and debt free - so it does have plus points.

Please. just for once, take off your Rovers tinted specs and see the financial situation for what it is - DIRE and not just for now but for the next few years.
We can argue until we are blue in the face but whether Rovers survive or not is down to Venky's, no-one else. And I do actually understand the word debt and dont have to put it in capitals to make a point.

They will either sort things out or not, and you ranting on at people who take a different view to you means jack ****.

They own the vast bulk of the debt, they own the club, if they walk away there is no knight in shining armour riding over the hill to save us, because over 75% of PL and FL clubs are in similar or worse positions to us thanks to Fair Play,

So forgive me for hoping for a positive end to this, I would rather take that attitude than whinge and whine all the time.
[quote][p][bold]J.C - Rishton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]J.C - Rishton[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]owd nick[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]jack01[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so: Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking. That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme. So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m. Do you realise your sustainable income is: Championship TV £3m Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m Sponsorships say £3m Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????) Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well. Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.[/p][/quote]Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here. You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners? You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is. The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further. If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club. So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.[/p][/quote]Excellent post Jack01, saves me the effort. Ok the figures aren't good but in all honesty who expected us to be turning a profit after the debacle of the last two seasons? I certainly didn't, relegation was bad but last seasons stupidity broke all possible barriers. Venky's are key now, they have already written off £25 million and the bulk of the current debt is owed to them or their bank in the form of an overdraft. There don't appear to be anymore major creditors, and the simple fact most are forgetting is that Venky's are billionaires, this debt is pocket money to them, and trust them or not it can't be argued that they are scared of putting their hands in their wallets when its needed. And before the knobheads start screaming "Parachute Payments" the simple fact of life is that when Venky's took us over any revenue coming into the club became theirs, as did responsibility for any debts. It's how the books stand at the end of this season that matters, not last season, or the season before, the way the club is being restructured this season with football people running it at last suggests our esteemed owners have learned some extremely painful financial and cultural lessons. Hopefully it's not too late and they will find a way out of this mess before the end of the season.[/p][/quote]Hi, Owd Nick and Jacko - I'm sorry but I don't agree on most of the principak points you make - 1 - Jacko says that "the debt is too Venkys" - so what ?? - its still a debt that can be called in at any time. If Venkys cared so much about Rovers why don't they "gift" the club that money then there would be no debt at all - think about it, if they arnt going to claim reypayment of it then why don't they just write off all the debt ? 2 - Venkys could give the club money at the moment - there is nothing to stop them. FFP has not kicked in yet so if they are so great (as you two always seem to infer) then why don't they do it - they do it at Man City, AV, QPR, Watford etc etc ??? 3- Also, you talk about "written guarantees" to, ineffect underwrite the debt - this is a corporate LEGAL REQUIREMENT in the UK for any company with a parent company when the subsiduary is trading insolvently - it is meaningless and is totally unenforcable under UK law (and everybody except 2 or 3 on here knows that Venkys are the biggest liars ever put on this earth). 4 - You say that Venkys are "billionaires" and this money is "nothing to them" - whilst combined in assets they (on paper) may be billionaires, in their last published accounts Venkys India only made just over £100 million profit - almost 50% of Rovers losses - hardly chicken feed, no matter how rich you are and also bear in mind that Venkys India has other (non Venky family members as shareholders) people who take a slice of that £100 million. 5- Word from India recently (about 8-10 weeks ago) was that Venkerash on his own had made that guarantee to the bank NOT the Venkys as a family - if that is true then that is another worrying development but since this disgusting family never deems to "comunicate" with us scum (its customers)then it is very difficult to find out where the club is in reality but to blandly brush it off as "well we knew things were financially bad so its all old news" is really underestimating to extent of this financial crisis - because that is what it is, a HUGE FINANCIAL HOLE that the club is sinking in more and more, day by day and if you think that getting players like Orr and Best off the books is going to solve it then you simply have no comprehension of the SIZE of the mess we are in. Lastly, do you really put your faith in the Venkys and Derek Shaw to have the financial and football nous to get the club out of this mess because I certainly don't !![/p][/quote]Old Nick also says that some of this debt is from last season or before and infers that so somehow that dosent matter - of course it matters - it still DEBT no matter how recent or how old !! Old Nick ends by saying that hopefully it'll all be sorted by "the end of this season" - a statement which shows your total lack of understanding in this situation - unless something happens out of left field - like Venkys actually putting in £50m in hard cash or them selling to some other mug with plently of money - this situation is going to CRIPPLE the club for years - that is the REALITY of this financial crisis - we are going to be the football equivilant of GREECE - you really need to try to understand the figures here and look at our expected future income Vs our debts - it does not make good reading. The other option is for Venkys to walk away and for the club to go into administration - this would ensure alot of short-term pain but the club would emerge out of it, Venky and debt free - so it does have plus points. Please. just for once, take off your Rovers tinted specs and see the financial situation for what it is - DIRE and not just for now but for the next few years.[/p][/quote]We can argue until we are blue in the face but whether Rovers survive or not is down to Venky's, no-one else. And I do actually understand the word debt and dont have to put it in capitals to make a point. They will either sort things out or not, and you ranting on at people who take a different view to you means jack ****. They own the vast bulk of the debt, they own the club, if they walk away there is no knight in shining armour riding over the hill to save us, because over 75% of PL and FL clubs are in similar or worse positions to us thanks to Fair Play, So forgive me for hoping for a positive end to this, I would rather take that attitude than whinge and whine all the time. owd nick

5:52pm Mon 4 Nov 13

more bans than ray - rovers LXXV says...

jack01 wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so:

Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking.

That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme.

So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m.

Do you realise your sustainable income is:
Championship TV £3m
Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m
Sponsorships say £3m

Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????)

Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good.

With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well.

Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.
Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here.

You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners?

You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is.

The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further.

If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club.

So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.
Great post
[quote][p][bold]jack01[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: I'll put everything together I've just posted over the last day or so: Where did this year’s initial starting loss of £24.5M come from? You posted a profit the year before and Venky's were telling everyone that all debt had been cleared? Even when they bought you way back in 2010 for ~£25M they accepted the existing debt of around £20M (ie effectively bought the club for £45M). So where exactly has the money gone and why have they not put any money in????? Fit and proper ownership - looks to me like they're just going to mismanage the club to destruction then run off to the Indian hills in a cloud of insolvency and leave the remnants of one of the founder members behind them. Shocking. That said and as I've noted elsewhere, the spirit of the parachute payments is to allow clubs to restructure and offload existing premiership contracts when the big TV money dries up. Blackburn did the opposite and invested further, including inexplicably in many Portuguese unknowns. However, to add a further £30M loss is negligence in the extreme. So wages alone were £36.6m. Allowing for the fact that you've offloaded some deadwood (though admittedly had to pay some off like Murphy, Pedersen, Gomes etc), I'd assume next years figures will be around £25m. Do you realise your sustainable income is: Championship TV £3m Gates (13000 @ £15) £4.5m Sponsorships say £3m Add in last years £16m parachute payment and it comes to £26m so I'm not far off with those figures when comparing with the reported turnover. Can you not see that the squad has to be RADICALLY changed to survive? Last year you had net transfer spending of £4.2m (IN Rhodes £8m, Best £3m, King £1m, Etuhu £1.6m, OUT Yakubu £1.2m, Hoillet £3.3m, Nzonzi £3.8m, Bunn £1.1m). With last year’s income of £26.9m (including most notably a £16m parachute payment) and the reported £36.3m wages, this means to achieve the reported loss, £22.9m has gone on running costs and/or otherwise been splashed up the wall (assumed to be agents fees and managerial redundancy payoffs????) Note this year you've so far brought in Evans at £750k and Marshall at £1.1m while selling Olson for £2.6m so not much change. Admittedly you've trimmed the wage bill a bit, but with reduced parachute payments and this £22.9m year-on-year albatross hanging round your neck at the moment it doesn't look good. With only £8m in parachute payments this year it's hard to see how you're not going to post another significant loss next year of at least £10m+ (possibly another £30m loss with the £22.9m of unknown running costs). By the time the parachute payments fully run out then we'll really be able to say we're at the same level. Unfortunately it looks like you're going to get weaker in transition in the meantime whereas Burnley are only getting stronger as we’ve already felt the pain and dealt with it well. Truly shocking to see what’s happening and no one in the football community sees fit to investigate.[/p][/quote]Well, some very interesting 'theories' that you're throwing around here. You ask the question of where has the money gone and why Venkys haven't put any in. Providing capital in the form of loans is common practice in football. Chelsea owe hundreds of millions to Abramovich. Bolton are £120 million in debt to their owner. Do you really think a commercial bank would continue to provide significant funds for a club like Rovers without some sort of guarantee from the owners? You say that Burnley are only going to get stronger as you've 'dealt with the pain well'. I would refer you to Burnley's set of accounts posted in August this year, in which they made a 'shocking' £8 million loss. One has to ask the question how this can be so. Burnley have spent years making cut backs, selling all players of value, reducing the wage bill, and even now, despite still being in receipt of parachute money themselves, are losing money hand over fist. If they were to repeat that loss next year then they too would be subject to a transfer embargo. You also need to bear in mind that Burnley have been able to 'cash in' on the likes of Rodriguez, Fletcher and Austin in recent years, which has helped reduce losses. What happens if you run out of players to sell? Its hardly the rosy picture you and your fellow Clarets like to think it is. The difference at Rovers is we still have parachute money to come for the next 3 years, have owners who are willing and able to provide money and have the ability to drastically reduce the wage bill (Etuhu, Best, Robinson) further. If Venkys were going to clear off and leave the club bankrupt then the time to do it would have been this summer. Rather than do that they've allowed more spending, including a £2million upgrade to the academy, and paid off several of the big wage earners draining the club. So whilst your theories are all very interesting, I would suggest you have a look a bit closer to home before worrying about Rovers financial future.[/p][/quote]Great post more bans than ray - rovers LXXV

6:01pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Stone Island: says...

I'm going to a bonfire tomorrow night, and think Shabby Minge would make the perfect Guy Fawkes. We could then put Kean, Anderson and the VERMIN from India in the middle of it, then light it!

Build a bonfire, build a bonfire..........
I'm going to a bonfire tomorrow night, and think Shabby Minge would make the perfect Guy Fawkes. We could then put Kean, Anderson and the VERMIN from India in the middle of it, then light it! Build a bonfire, build a bonfire.......... Stone Island:

7:36pm Mon 4 Nov 13

modan says...

Venkys have no other choice but to bankroll this ailing football club.We all knew a small club like Blackburn Rovers FC with average gates of around 24,000 cannot survive in Championship League with massive PL wage bills.
Venkys have three choices that is sell the club or find another silent partner like billionaire Laxmi Mittal at QPR FC with Tony Fernandes or keep this club afloat by bankrolling from Venky's wealth of around £3 billion.£54 million might help millions of Indians out of poverty ? who are deserving most ?
Venkys have no other choice but to bankroll this ailing football club.We all knew a small club like Blackburn Rovers FC with average gates of around 24,000 cannot survive in Championship League with massive PL wage bills. Venkys have three choices that is sell the club or find another silent partner like billionaire Laxmi Mittal at QPR FC with Tony Fernandes or keep this club afloat by bankrolling from Venky's wealth of around £3 billion.£54 million might help millions of Indians out of poverty ? who are deserving most ? modan

7:51pm Mon 4 Nov 13

baldie says...

Seems there are more financial experts in Burnley than there are football experts on tv,and that's saying something.
I don't know anything more than I read on here and see on the pitch on a Saturday.
It seems to me that the club has almost had a change of personality since Agnew and Singh left.
Every question put to either Shaw or Bowyer has been answered in an honest,,down to earth,Blackburn Roverslike way.
Financial expert I am not,but I do know that going up wouldn't do our cause any harm.4 points off the play off places with a good young team and a good young manager and half a dozen first teamers to come back in.
COME ON YOU MIGHTY BLUES
Seems there are more financial experts in Burnley than there are football experts on tv,and that's saying something. I don't know anything more than I read on here and see on the pitch on a Saturday. It seems to me that the club has almost had a change of personality since Agnew and Singh left. Every question put to either Shaw or Bowyer has been answered in an honest,,down to earth,Blackburn Roverslike way. Financial expert I am not,but I do know that going up wouldn't do our cause any harm.4 points off the play off places with a good young team and a good young manager and half a dozen first teamers to come back in. COME ON YOU MIGHTY BLUES baldie

8:16pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Blolburn Roflers says...

Honestly speaking here, I've laid awake at night thinking about that lad on here who claimed that Jordan Rhodes FC were actively trying to comply with FFP.

I've sat there and just tried to figure out anyone could ever come to that conclusion.

I wonder what Comical Ali will have to say about this?

"The infidels are plucking these figures from the fires of hell, our reserves of money are limitless and are minted in the royal gates of heaven. The man whosays otherwise is doomed to spend an eternity being tortured in the most desolate place in the universe - shadsworth"

I cannot tell you how elated this news has made me fool.

Lovely bleedin jubbly :D
Honestly speaking here, I've laid awake at night thinking about that lad on here who claimed that Jordan Rhodes FC were actively trying to comply with FFP. I've sat there and just tried to figure out anyone could ever come to that conclusion. I wonder what Comical Ali will have to say about this? "The infidels are plucking these figures from the fires of hell, our reserves of money are limitless and are minted in the royal gates of heaven. The man whosays otherwise is doomed to spend an eternity being tortured in the most desolate place in the universe - shadsworth" I cannot tell you how elated this news has made me fool. Lovely bleedin jubbly :D Blolburn Roflers

8:22pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Properfan23 says...

It's been a long standing bug bear of mine but please, if you're inclined to post/ pontificate/ let off steam/ pretend to be someone else/ expose yourself either on here as a loser or at home on your own....please please learn the difference between 'there' and ' their', 'were' and 'where', 'your' and 'you're' and countless others. FFS it is a shambles. If you can't even master the one language how can you expect your opinion to resonate? Others will win you every time, learn you a thing or 2 and think you was a nobber from Burnley. Oh, you are aunt you?
It's been a long standing bug bear of mine but please, if you're inclined to post/ pontificate/ let off steam/ pretend to be someone else/ expose yourself either on here as a loser or at home on your own....please please learn the difference between 'there' and ' their', 'were' and 'where', 'your' and 'you're' and countless others. FFS it is a shambles. If you can't even master the one language how can you expect your opinion to resonate? Others will win you every time, learn you a thing or 2 and think you was a nobber from Burnley. Oh, you are aunt you? Properfan23

8:24pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Blolburn Roflers says...

Also, just spotted the fake lancs pensioner flapping AGAIN.

EVERYONE! IM THE REAL PENSIONER!! LOOK! ANYONE?!

cringeworthy.
Also, just spotted the fake lancs pensioner flapping AGAIN. EVERYONE! IM THE REAL PENSIONER!! LOOK! ANYONE?! cringeworthy. Blolburn Roflers

8:24pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Stone Island: says...

Blolburn Roflers wrote:
Honestly speaking here, I've laid awake at night thinking about that lad on here who claimed that Jordan Rhodes FC were actively trying to comply with FFP.

I've sat there and just tried to figure out anyone could ever come to that conclusion.

I wonder what Comical Ali will have to say about this?

"The infidels are plucking these figures from the fires of hell, our reserves of money are limitless and are minted in the royal gates of heaven. The man whosays otherwise is doomed to spend an eternity being tortured in the most desolate place in the universe - shadsworth"

I cannot tell you how elated this news has made me fool.

Lovely bleedin jubbly :D
Fool being the operative word.
[quote][p][bold]Blolburn Roflers[/bold] wrote: Honestly speaking here, I've laid awake at night thinking about that lad on here who claimed that Jordan Rhodes FC were actively trying to comply with FFP. I've sat there and just tried to figure out anyone could ever come to that conclusion. I wonder what Comical Ali will have to say about this? "The infidels are plucking these figures from the fires of hell, our reserves of money are limitless and are minted in the royal gates of heaven. The man whosays otherwise is doomed to spend an eternity being tortured in the most desolate place in the universe - shadsworth" I cannot tell you how elated this news has made me fool. Lovely bleedin jubbly :D[/p][/quote]Fool being the operative word. Stone Island:

8:37pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Blolburn Roflers says...

Sorry for the typo. Im just crying tears of joy and its hard to see
Sorry for the typo. Im just crying tears of joy and its hard to see Blolburn Roflers

8:58pm Mon 4 Nov 13

FakeVilla_MTCabinet says...

whats all the panic about? Briggy Braggy Brew have had a whip round and can buy the club including debt for a tenner.
Sorted
whats all the panic about? Briggy Braggy Brew have had a whip round and can buy the club including debt for a tenner. Sorted FakeVilla_MTCabinet

9:36pm Mon 4 Nov 13

leyton says...

THATS A LOT OF CHICKENS FOR THE JIBBS TOO SELL HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
THATS A LOT OF CHICKENS FOR THE JIBBS TOO SELL HAHAHAHAHAHAHA leyton

10:06pm Mon 4 Nov 13

TurfMoorTom says...

we.love.u.venkys wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
we.love.u.venkys wrote:
TurfMoorTom wrote:
Trimming your squad you could line up:

Kean
Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr
Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney
Rhodes King

With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable.........




..
What a parasite you are. Ridiculed time and again by both Burnley and Blackburn fans, how embarrassing.

The truth is you are a sad excuse for a Blackburn Rovers supporter and your views are nonsense. Get a life.
I'm a Rovers supporter and my views are nonsense? How offensive, who would expect someone to go to the trouble of joining a supporters chat forum pretending to be something they weren't? Some seem to think my views are quite well thought out - from the scores I'm beating you 58-2??
What an absolute b@llbag you are.

Otherwise knows an Fake_Villa. A disgrace to honest football fans who use these message boards for constructive discussion and debate.

You are a b45tard who has never been accepted by other b45tards and have become confused about your feelings towards Burnley, a far, far superior club; hence the name TurfMoorTom. You long to be a Claret but it will never happen. You remain a sad, lonely, Shadsworth reprobate.
Whoa there, calm down sir, had I fished you in. All I speak is fact, sense and the truth. All they need to do is sell 4 or 5 players to bring money in and reduce the wage bill as a double whammy and their restructuring is almost done. Bowyer seems to be moving them in the right direction whereas we know we simply are having a flash in the pan which can't last. We always look silly come the end of the season, we're Dingles aren't we??
[quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]TurfMoorTom[/bold] wrote: Trimming your squad you could line up: Kean Kane Hanley Kilgallon Spurr Marshall Evans Lowe Cairney Rhodes King With Dunn, Henley, Taylor, Rochina, Morris, Judge and one more central defender supplemented by other squad members that should be more than enough for this league and with King's pace allow you to play 4-5-1 without the ball. Depressingly I have to say even then still stronger than us though more importantly sustainable......... ..[/p][/quote]What a parasite you are. Ridiculed time and again by both Burnley and Blackburn fans, how embarrassing. The truth is you are a sad excuse for a Blackburn Rovers supporter and your views are nonsense. Get a life.[/p][/quote]I'm a Rovers supporter and my views are nonsense? How offensive, who would expect someone to go to the trouble of joining a supporters chat forum pretending to be something they weren't? Some seem to think my views are quite well thought out - from the scores I'm beating you 58-2??[/p][/quote]What an absolute b@llbag you are. Otherwise knows an Fake_Villa. A disgrace to honest football fans who use these message boards for constructive discussion and debate. You are a b45tard who has never been accepted by other b45tards and have become confused about your feelings towards Burnley, a far, far superior club; hence the name TurfMoorTom. You long to be a Claret but it will never happen. You remain a sad, lonely, Shadsworth reprobate.[/p][/quote]Whoa there, calm down sir, had I fished you in. All I speak is fact, sense and the truth. All they need to do is sell 4 or 5 players to bring money in and reduce the wage bill as a double whammy and their restructuring is almost done. Bowyer seems to be moving them in the right direction whereas we know we simply are having a flash in the pan which can't last. We always look silly come the end of the season, we're Dingles aren't we?? TurfMoorTom

10:10pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Stone Island: says...

leyton wrote:
THATS A LOT OF CHICKENS FOR THE JIBBS TOO SELL HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I dread to think of how much time, effort and money, that has been wasted on your 'education'. If brains were made of dynamite, you wouldn't have enough to blow your backward facing baseball cap off.
[quote][p][bold]leyton[/bold] wrote: THATS A LOT OF CHICKENS FOR THE JIBBS TOO SELL HAHAHAHAHAHAHA[/p][/quote]I dread to think of how much time, effort and money, that has been wasted on your 'education'. If brains were made of dynamite, you wouldn't have enough to blow your backward facing baseball cap off. Stone Island:

10:13pm Mon 4 Nov 13

burnleyfan4life says...

jim 2012 wrote:
we.love.u.venkys wrote:
What an utter shambles of a football club. A disgrace from top to bottom.

League One awaits.
BURNLEY have suffered a 'shocking' £8million loss for the last financial year, it has emerged.

The deficit for 2012-13 is almost double the figure projected for the previous year.
pot calling kettle me thinks
As quoted earlier - The £8m loss for Burnley include buying back the ground which lowers our overheads this year as we obviously no longer need to pay the rent - The Charlie Austin monies also are not in those figures - Burnley are projecting this year to break even or make a small profit!! - Well within fair play rules - also they will be one of the few clubs to meet financial fair play.

As a result will be having a larger share of any fines imposed on clubs promoted that fail financial fair play - I am led to beleive that QPR may get a fine of £30m plus if they are promoted??? - Quite a payday for the compliant clubs.

Really it forces clubs to cut their cloth accordingly and look to the lower leagues and youth set ups - Football had to change.- The wages paid simply do not add up and are unsustainable.

Rovers knew this and decided to gamble on a return - as have other clubs - It failed.

Everyone can point fingers but the blame for this firmly lies at the feet of the Venky's and their decision to appoint Jerome (mr fleece anyone I can) Andeson!! and the decision to sack big Sam - Incredible
[quote][p][bold]jim 2012[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: What an utter shambles of a football club. A disgrace from top to bottom. League One awaits.[/p][/quote]BURNLEY have suffered a 'shocking' £8million loss for the last financial year, it has emerged. The deficit for 2012-13 is almost double the figure projected for the previous year. pot calling kettle me thinks[/p][/quote]As quoted earlier - The £8m loss for Burnley include buying back the ground which lowers our overheads this year as we obviously no longer need to pay the rent - The Charlie Austin monies also are not in those figures - Burnley are projecting this year to break even or make a small profit!! - Well within fair play rules - also they will be one of the few clubs to meet financial fair play. As a result will be having a larger share of any fines imposed on clubs promoted that fail financial fair play - I am led to beleive that QPR may get a fine of £30m plus if they are promoted??? - Quite a payday for the compliant clubs. Really it forces clubs to cut their cloth accordingly and look to the lower leagues and youth set ups - Football had to change.- The wages paid simply do not add up and are unsustainable. Rovers knew this and decided to gamble on a return - as have other clubs - It failed. Everyone can point fingers but the blame for this firmly lies at the feet of the Venky's and their decision to appoint Jerome (mr fleece anyone I can) Andeson!! and the decision to sack big Sam - Incredible burnleyfan4life

10:40pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Lancs - pensioner says...

Lancs - pensioner. wrote:
Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..
Oh no we have fake LP version 7 don't worry I'll get this one band as well, for the intelligent people on here the new fake thick dingle LP is now

Pensioner with a dot after it, well done thicko!

The fake pensioner has a dot at the end of pensioner.
[quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner.[/bold] wrote: Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..[/p][/quote]Oh no we have fake LP version 7 don't worry I'll get this one band as well, for the intelligent people on here the new fake thick dingle LP is now Pensioner with a dot after it, well done thicko! The fake pensioner has a dot at the end of pensioner. Lancs - pensioner

10:42pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Lancs - pensioner says...

we.love.u.venkys wrote:
Lancs - pensioner. wrote:
Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..
Always knew you were a closet Claret. Well done for coming out old man.

LP - Burnley and proud!
Fake LP and WLYV are the same one, both sleep with there sister!

Hahahahahahahahhahah
ahahahahahauauhahaha

Hahahahahahahahhahah
ahahahahahauauhahaha
[quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner.[/bold] wrote: Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..[/p][/quote]Always knew you were a closet Claret. Well done for coming out old man. LP - Burnley and proud![/p][/quote]Fake LP and WLYV are the same one, both sleep with there sister! Hahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahauauhahaha Hahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahauauhahaha Lancs - pensioner

11:03pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Stone Island: says...

Lancs - pensioner wrote:
we.love.u.venkys wrote:
Lancs - pensioner. wrote:
Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..
Always knew you were a closet Claret. Well done for coming out old man.

LP - Burnley and proud!
Fake LP and WLYV are the same one, both sleep with there sister!

Hahahahahahahahhahah

ahahahahahauauhahaha

Hahahahahahahahhahah

ahahahahahauauhahaha
He's obviously one sad, lonely mixed up b'stard. A classic case of schizophrenia. Or maybe years of interbreeding has taken its toll?
[quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner.[/bold] wrote: Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..[/p][/quote]Always knew you were a closet Claret. Well done for coming out old man. LP - Burnley and proud![/p][/quote]Fake LP and WLYV are the same one, both sleep with there sister! Hahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahauauhahaha Hahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahauauhahaha[/p][/quote]He's obviously one sad, lonely mixed up b'stard. A classic case of schizophrenia. Or maybe years of interbreeding has taken its toll? Stone Island:

11:49pm Mon 4 Nov 13

Lancs - pensioner says...

Stone Island: wrote:
Lancs - pensioner wrote:
we.love.u.venkys wrote:
Lancs - pensioner. wrote:
Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..
Always knew you were a closet Claret. Well done for coming out old man.

LP - Burnley and proud!
Fake LP and WLYV are the same one, both sleep with there sister!

Hahahahahahahahhahah


ahahahahahauauhahaha

Hahahahahahahahhahah


ahahahahahauauhahaha
He's obviously one sad, lonely mixed up b'stard. A classic case of schizophrenia. Or maybe years of interbreeding has taken its toll?
Shhhhh he's asleep with his sister as we speak!!!!
[quote][p][bold]Stone Island:[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]we.love.u.venkys[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Lancs - pensioner.[/bold] wrote: Did someone mention my name.WLYV i honestly think you're time is wasted here with your no nonsence ways of thinking keep up the good work young man.Now i've seen the claret of my ways..It's burnley for me..[/p][/quote]Always knew you were a closet Claret. Well done for coming out old man. LP - Burnley and proud![/p][/quote]Fake LP and WLYV are the same one, both sleep with there sister! Hahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahauauhahaha Hahahahahahahahhahah ahahahahahauauhahaha[/p][/quote]He's obviously one sad, lonely mixed up b'stard. A classic case of schizophrenia. Or maybe years of interbreeding has taken its toll?[/p][/quote]Shhhhh he's asleep with his sister as we speak!!!! Lancs - pensioner

1:42am Tue 5 Nov 13

noddy57 says...

any one with half of a brain know that the Venky,s came with good intentions but they were let down badly by their advisors,,,they were only interested in making a quick buck,,if and it might be a big if,,when we get back to the premiership l think the owners will realise that they went in blind and found out they were out of their depth and will sell just as soon as they can,
any one with half of a brain know that the Venky,s came with good intentions but they were let down badly by their advisors,,,they were only interested in making a quick buck,,if and it might be a big if,,when we get back to the premiership l think the owners will realise that they went in blind and found out they were out of their depth and will sell just as soon as they can, noddy57

9:28am Tue 5 Nov 13

owd nick says...

Properfan23 wrote:
It's been a long standing bug bear of mine but please, if you're inclined to post/ pontificate/ let off steam/ pretend to be someone else/ expose yourself either on here as a loser or at home on your own....please please learn the difference between 'there' and ' their', 'were' and 'where', 'your' and 'you're' and countless others. FFS it is a shambles. If you can't even master the one language how can you expect your opinion to resonate? Others will win you every time, learn you a thing or 2 and think you was a nobber from Burnley. Oh, you are aunt you?
It should have been two not 2.

Sorry :-)
[quote][p][bold]Properfan23[/bold] wrote: It's been a long standing bug bear of mine but please, if you're inclined to post/ pontificate/ let off steam/ pretend to be someone else/ expose yourself either on here as a loser or at home on your own....please please learn the difference between 'there' and ' their', 'were' and 'where', 'your' and 'you're' and countless others. FFS it is a shambles. If you can't even master the one language how can you expect your opinion to resonate? Others will win you every time, learn you a thing or 2 and think you was a nobber from Burnley. Oh, you are aunt you?[/p][/quote]It should have been two not 2. Sorry :-) owd nick

2:21pm Tue 5 Nov 13

leyton says...

Stone Island: wrote:
leyton wrote:
THATS A LOT OF CHICKENS FOR THE JIBBS TOO SELL HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I dread to think of how much time, effort and money, that has been wasted on your 'education'. If brains were made of dynamite, you wouldn't have enough to blow your backward facing baseball cap off.
says the necro jibb fan lol
[quote][p][bold]Stone Island:[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]leyton[/bold] wrote: THATS A LOT OF CHICKENS FOR THE JIBBS TOO SELL HAHAHAHAHAHAHA[/p][/quote]I dread to think of how much time, effort and money, that has been wasted on your 'education'. If brains were made of dynamite, you wouldn't have enough to blow your backward facing baseball cap off.[/p][/quote]says the necro jibb fan lol leyton

7:30am Wed 6 Nov 13

ossybsting says...

hey did I tell you............top of the league
hey did I tell you............top of the league ossybsting

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